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Chaos Bolt is the first Sorcerer-only spell. Interesting. What I've read so far looks really good. I like the idea of Ceremony quite a bit, but some of the effects (Investiture!) might be a little overpowered.

Chaos Bolt is the first Sorcerer-only spell. Interesting.

What I've read so far looks really good. I like the idea of Ceremony quite a bit, but some of the effects (Investiture!) might be a little overpowered.
 

Lanliss

Explorer
The word "warlock" is a clue. Evil is not a requirement, but sketchy definitely is.

You've got it backwards. They're not "not good" because they're warlock patrons; they're warlock patrons because they're "not good". A warlock is the guy who seeks "not good" entities out and makes bargains with them at substantial risk to his own health, sanity, and soul. It's dangerous and transgressive magic that most other characters think is a Bad Idea. If you want to do nice, safe, happy things for a nice, safe, happy patron, look under P for paladin.

You can do whatever you like in your campaign, but you should keep in mind when talking about the core game that the core game does not run under the same rules your campaign does. The warlock class was written with the understanding that a pact with an fiend is a pact with "a being whose aims are evil, even if you strive against those aims. Such beings desire the corruption or destruction of all things, ultimately including you."

Careful. The amount of spells that you can safely grant at-will casting for is pretty limited. You'll note that most warlock invocations that grant spells are actually more restrictive than standard warlock spellcasting, requiring both a spell slot and a long rest to recharge. If a warlock has this sort of restriction on bane or confusion, I can't see the Tempest cleric getting thunderwave or ice storm at will.

Try it. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Cleric domains are probably the most defining subclass system of any class.

By this logic, is there anything that can't be handwaved into a "table issue"? "The truenamer class literally doesn't work as written -- but that's fine, because if the table considers it a problem, they can fix it!" What is the RPG writer's job here?

Just googled Warlock Definition. "A man who practices Witchcraft; A sorcerer". Nothing about Evil. The Merriam-Webster site says it is "A man who practices the Black Arts", but that is what all magic that wasn't "Cleric" based was called, so I don't put much stock in that. Looked through all of the flavor bits on the opening page for Warlock in the PHB. No mention of Evil. The closest thing it gets to saying patrons are bad is "Mysterious beings" in the last paragraph of the first section. Also, the "Sworn and Beholden" section even says that the relationship can be the same as that of a Cleric and their Deity.

I think the primary difference is in how Ambiguous the patron/Deity is. An absolute force of Evil would be more like a Deity, IMO, while something that has motives that actually change once-in-a-thousand-years is more like a Patron. A fiend might want souls to power it, or want you to bring down his competitor so he can bring a kinder side to the 9 hells. An Archfey might want you to collect beautiful slaves for her, or want you to pick some flowers every month. Deities have a specific, pre-determined goal, the force behind their godhood, and woe betide the cleric who wavers from that path.

Looking over the domain spell, you may be right that they are a bit much to give as an at-will. Maybe just bonuses to those spells will work, since a Cleric will be guaranteed to have them anyway. Things like Bless being a d6, or Faerie fire having a +2 to the DC. I don't know, I will think a bit harder another time. As for playing one, I might get a chance eventually, and I am not so stubborn as to refuse to try it jsut because I don't like the looks of it. I just need to find the story I want to tell for a Cleric.

Many things cannot be stopped at the table level as easily as saying "No shenanigans". I don't imagine there are many DMs who think "Attacking" is a problem, and so ban it at their table. However, things like this are clearly shenanigans, and not something a person in the world would stop their world saving quest to spend a day doing. I cannot even imagine a player actually saying he is going to try this exploit, and most well adjusted adults would just say OK if asked to stop. I feel like us butting heads on this topic isn't going to lead anywhere beyond a circle, and is getting in the way of the more constructive discussion happening in the top half of our posts, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the matter. If they change it to some sort of Locked spell slot system, I will use this one instead. I am sure if they don't change it You will just tell your players No when they try to pull something stupid. You seem like a reasonable person that way.
 

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Just googled Warlock Definition. "A man who practices Witchcraft; A sorcerer". Nothing about Evil. The Merriam-Webster site says it is "A man who practices the Black Arts", but that is what all magic that wasn't "Cleric" based was called, so I don't put much stock in that.
There's no such thing as real magic, real witches, or real warlocks. All these words refer to imaginary concepts. So when English-speaking culture uses the words "witch" and "warlock" specifically for imaginary practitioners of malicious magic -- and, with all due respect to modern neopagans trying to redefine the words, this really is how they were and continue to be used -- that's the end of the story. That's what witches and warlocks are. There's no "truth" for the speakers to be misrepresenting or mistaken about. Saying you don't put much stock in that definition is like saying you don't put much stock in unicorns having one horn.

If that general fact about how words work isn't enough to convince you on its own, consider that warlock in the most literal sense means "oathbreaker". The war- is related to the ver- in verify and means something like "truth" or "trust"; the -lock means "liar" and (believe it or not) is from the same root. This is not a name one calls a person who is doing things of which one approves. It's as if there were a class called "Traitor" and you were telling me that characters of this class don't actually have to do any betraying.

I think the primary difference is in how Ambiguous the patron/Deity is. An absolute force of Evil would be more like a Deity, IMO, while something that has motives that actually change once-in-a-thousand-years is more like a Patron. A fiend might want souls to power it, or want you to bring down his competitor so he can bring a kinder side to the 9 hells.
That italicized quotation in my last post about corruption and destruction? I didn't just make that up. That was straight from the PHB. Again: the difference can be whatever you want it to be in your campaign, but that's not the difference that's in the core rules and you can't expect it to be the difference in future content based on the core rules.

Looking over the domain spell, you may be right that they are a bit much to give as an at-will. Maybe just bonuses to those spells will work, since a Cleric will be guaranteed to have them anyway. Things like Bless being a d6, or Faerie fire having a +2 to the DC.
A lot of the domain abilities actually do stuff like that. Cool things happen whenever a tempest cleric deals thunder or lightning damage, for instance.
 
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Lanliss

Explorer
There's no such thing as real magic, real witches, or real warlocks. All these words refer to imaginary concepts. So when English-speaking culture uses the words "witch" and "warlock" specifically for imaginary practitioners of malicious magic -- and, with all due respect to modern neopagans trying to redefine the words, this really is how they were and continue to be used -- that's the end of the story. That's what witches and warlocks are. There's no "truth" for the speakers to be misrepresenting or mistaken about. Saying you don't put much stock in that definition is like saying you don't put much stock in unicorns having one horn.

If that general fact about how words work isn't enough to convince you on its own, consider that warlock in the most literal sense means "oathbreaker". The war- is related to the ver- in verify and means something like "truth" or "trust"; the -lock means "liar" and (believe it or not) is from the same root. This is not a name one calls a person who is doing things of which one approves. It's as if there were a class called "Traitor" and you were telling me that characters of this class don't actually have to do any betraying.

That italicized quotation in my last post about corruption and destruction? I didn't just make that up. That was straight from the PHB. Again: the difference can be whatever you want it to be in your campaign, but that's not the difference that's in the core rules and you can't expect it to be the difference in future content based on the core rules.

A lot of the domain abilities actually do stuff like that. Cool things happen whenever a tempest cleric deals thunder or lightning damage, for instance.

By "Don't put much stock in that" I meant it the same way as "I don't put much stock in the Salem witch trials." The fact that magic doesn't exist is irrelevant to the point, which is that all sorts of people disapprove of all sort of things, and one person/group of peoples name for that thing need not be true. There are people now who will call a doctor a warlock, the Devil, or all sorts of other mean things.

I found your quote, specifically only in the Fiend section. That doesn't at all apply to all the patrons, though I am happy to accept that my particular version of Fiends is far from the norm. The other two patrons are listed as inscrutable, or beyond understanding. At best, that hints towards their alignments being chaotic, but not by any means evil. GOO patrons might even be Unaligned, as far as their awareness stretches.

Aye, I read the cleric class, and would of course use it for inspiration on my rewrite. I wouldn't want to shut out those who are happy with the cleric as it is after all. I just want a deeper level of customization, and the Warlock scratches my itch for just the right amount.

I mentioned my specific reasons for wanting to change the cleric, but will mention them again here as they are relevant to the next point. I feel that, for a Champion of the Gods, few of their powers are actually different. Looking over the Cleric with a careful eye, I think my main issue is Channel divinity turn/destroy undead. That single ability shows up in 6 of their allotted slots for progression, and does nothing interesting. I would probably cut it out, or slide it down to one of the domains, to make room for more Domain specific Features.

I would also think about adding a third layer to customization, like the Warlock has with the Book/Chain/Blade. There have been multiple stories about clerics, or at least people who fight the infernal side of things, with different ways of showing those powers. Rituals, holy weapons or relics, or advanced knowledge all come to mind. I would need to think of good ways to represent these that do not mirror the Warlock features. The Weapons in particular would be an issue, as it basically comes to mind like a Divine version of the Blade pact.
 

MagicSN

First Post
Edit: or, you could keep all of the 5E classes as is, just rewrite the way you write dungeons, and just let the chips fall where they may. That's basically what I've been doing so far with 5E but I could ramp it up by adding more monsters that bypass HP (old-style Green Slime) and/or kill you when you hit zero HP, golems that are flat-out immune to spells and to weapons with less than +2 enchantment, mind flayers with 90% magic resistance, save-or-die poison traps, etc. It would basically be "5E PCs in an AD&D dungeon." Might be worth trying.

Magic Resistance and immunity to spells has the serious disadvantage that then the player who plays the caster just sits and waits while the non-casters can have fun in the battle. Seriously flawed strategy of encounter building - 90% resistance even worse. Unless you bring several types of enemies, so everyone has something "todo".

Best regards,
Steffen
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The "Warlock patrons can't be good" ship sailed long ago, and was a bad ship anyway.

4e Patrona included The Lady of The White Well, who is explicitly a victim of jealousy and a curse, and simply wants free.

5e includes the Seeker, and the ArchFey makes no mention of Seelie or Unseelie, or any suggestion of what kind of Fey make pacts.

The idea was posited a while back that simply the fact that the Patron is making pacts instead of granting power like clerics get theirs, means that Warlock patrons are not "on the level". I...find this argument egregiously ridiculous.

Great Old Ones aren't even necessarily aware of the Pact, and when they are their motivations are basically unknowable. Arch Fey...are Fey. Just like in folklore, they range greatly in nature, from helpful and nice, to dark and vicious or outright malevolent. Nothing about the flavor tells us hat warlocks only make pacts with the "bad" ones.

And just as important, they are bloody Fey![i/] Deals, trades etc. are the classic Fey thing. Good, bad, and unaligned.

Lastly, servitude? Really?
 

Remathilis

Legend
Titania of the Summer Court is mentioned as a patron in SCAG; she's NG or CG, IIRC.

The Undying Court of Eberron (all G or N) are mentioned as Undying Patrons as well.

So there are cannon Good-aligned patrons. Scant few, but there.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
edit: ninja,d by [MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION]

What really bugs me here, is that the flavor of the warlock includes the obsessive pursuit of *knowledge*, not just power, and again, the good warlock with an ill considered Pact with something evil is the classic warlock.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Titania of the Summer Court is mentioned as a patron in SCAG; she's NG or CG, IIRC.

The Undying Court of Eberron (all G or N) are mentioned as Undying Patrons as well.

So there are cannon Good-aligned patrons. Scant few, but there.

Them, other "summer Fey" like Oberon, plus the Seeker, the Undying Light is...kinda not even a patron, in the normal sense, and Hexblades get power from powerful artifact weapons. Even the Raven Queen is ambiguous, at worst.

And even with the actually evil Patrons, like fiends, the warlock is just as likely to have made a deal in desperation and be trying to find a way out, or a way to fight their patron, so even evil patrons don't mean evil warlocks.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
edit: ninja,d by [MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION]

What really bugs me here, is that the flavor of the warlock includes the obsessive pursuit of *knowledge*, not just power, and again, the good warlock with an ill considered Pact with something evil is the classic warlock.

That does seem odd. The obsessive pursuit of knowledge sounds right up the alley of the Tomelock (GOO-pact for Lovercraftian archetpes, Infernal-pact basically gives you Faust), but Chain and Blade pact boons? Definitely strike me as more for power-obsessives.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
The Undying Court of Eberron (all G or N) are mentioned as Undying Patrons as well.

This goes further to blur the lines between Cleric and Warlock, since the Undying Court are also explicitly deities as far as offering Divine spell-casting goes.

Though that of course could just be seen as a setting-specific quirk of Eberron, which has always been rather murky about the source of divine magic and what separates it from arcane magic, thematically if not mechanically.
 

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