Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana: Wizards & Warlocks -- Hexblades, Raven Queens, and Lore Mastery!

Master of Hexes
Starting at 14th level, you can use your
Hexblade’s Curse again without resting, but
when you apply it to a new target, the curse
immediately ends on the previous target.


Does this mean you can cast it one more time, or over and over again? And does the 1 minute duration reset upon a new target, or does it continue from the previous target?
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
To be fair, that kind of design can work really well. See: Star Wars Saga Edition. But that is also a game that needed a damn character builder. Not because the math was complicated, but because there were so many distinct options to go through to mke a character. But the system works very well, and models an enormous array of character archetypes.

But in a game with subclasses that are as small as 5e DnD? Not a chance.
From what I gather, the Saga rules may have been an inspiration: basic class chassis with lots of fiddley options; but I agree, that doesn't fit the rather streamlined 5E approach they ended up with.

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
This. Even if the warlock is my favorite class ever, I dont understand why ''how you get your powers'' have such a big impact on arcane spellcasters. I mean, we dont have different martial classes because I bought my sword instead of having it being gifted to me, or because I use it left-handed.
And bard, if changed to chanter (I, for one, am thrilled by the Pillars of Eternity PnP), could be a druid subclass based of floklore/ancient spirits inhabiting songs and tales of different people. Druid are more than just tree-huger, animal summoner hermits.

It's pretty Natural and intuitive to imagine that different sources of magic work differently and do different things. In fact, I would say that it would be unusual from the perspective of common stories, folk lore, etc, to have cleric, bard, Druid, and warlock magic all work the same.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I'm kinda with cbwjm on this. I've never really understood the point of the Sorcerer: it's just a Wizard with alternative spell slot mechanics and Charisma as spellcasting stat. Everything else is fluff.

The Warlock feels more distinct, although honestly I detest "Eldritch Blast". I skipped a couple of editions and came back during Next and was stunned that so many players thought that Eldritch Blast defined the Warlock. I was all, "So...they're Evokers, fluffed with a Patron?" A nuker by another name. I wish Warlocks didn't have direct damage cantrips.
 

I think the hexblade could just be handled with an invocation: requirement (pact of blade): you gain proficiency with medium armor and shields. Would require a 3 level dip at least so it is not easily exploitable by multiclass.

Of course errata to give this to the pact of blade upon taking the pact (same with valor bard) would work too but WotC is very skittish about errata these days (I think they overcorrected for 4e excesses).

I would be ok with medium armor and shelds but would really put the charisma on attack rolls on an invokation so it is at least level 2 and costs you an invocation slot. So you really have to pay for the privilege of a single attribute attack stat.
 

MarkB

Legend
From what I gather, the Saga rules may have been an inspiration: basic class chassis with lots of fiddley options; but I agree, that doesn't fit the rather streamlined 5E approach they ended up with.

Saga's rules were about two steps away from a truly classless character creation system. I was always a little disappointed that 4e didn't take those couple of extra steps.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
I always take a level of knowledge cleric before starting on wizardly adventures, I envision as wizard as a studious type and I like the armor proficiency and bless. Loremaster provides a different option. It reads OP, less so the more your DM works you. If you do go cleric MC anywhere can you burn those first level spell slots to power these features?

The abilities all save you on feats, at least energy substitution. I would imagine I would spend a feat on medium armor proficiency to save a spell slot.

With the 6th level feature area spells get a huge boost, even sort of crappy damage spells like erupting earth become better. With this feature why would you cast spells in a higher level spot?

I think the DM would have to regulate player knowledge vs PC knowledge to govern the energy substitution and save switching part.

The free limited wish at 14 is sort of crazy. I think I would make the player pick that one in advance.



I was hoping for a better conjurer or more spells to summon creatures or even a form of improved summoning. Hopes dashed again
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I read somewhere that in the first days of the playtest, the sorcerer worked differently. I cant find it anywhere on the internet, but IIRC they were developping more martial/melee aptitude as they spent their magic slot. The concept was, as an exemple, that a Dragon sorcerer was slowly becoming himself more and more a dragon the more they manifested their magic, like gaining scales at 4 spells casted in a day, gaining wings at 8 spell casted, etc.

I'd like to have something like this. Let the mage have all the magic in the world, at the end of the day, when they are out of slots, one's a weakling and the other is a dragon. :)

True, and I still have the old playtest material saved on my computer. If you want I could dig through it all and see if I can find it. Send it to you in a PM or post a link here?

That is not an argument I am making. Sorcerer was a fix for a problem/playstyle that is no longer valid. Sorcerer is the odd duck, imho, not the wizard, and not the Lore Master Archetype (which fits fine with other classes sans sorcerer, and other wizards).
The odd duck is the sorcerer.

Forgive me for being offended by this, but that is relatively insulting to people who like the sorcerer.

"It isn't a problem of being under-powered or having another class take all your toys. You're just obsolete these days and that's the way it is"

Wouldn't that sort of assessment lead to only one of two solutions? Either the sorcerer needs fixed (like I said) or it needs deleted from the game... to make room for this new wizard.

I think my stance on that is going to be clear.

I'm not advocating getting rid of the sorcerer, but you can do all of those things by customising the wizard.

And you can make a sneak thief by customizing the barbarian. Doesn’t necessarily move this conversation along though.

Nope. All of those things you said can't be done with the wizard class, can be done with the wizard class.

Yes, but in the original post she admitted it was kludgy and weird. You can reflavor it, but you know you are breaking with the intention of the class. If this was 1e that might be okay, but we’ve got the sorcerer sitting right there. We have a class concept that fits better what we’re trying to accomplish.

It’s like saying you can turn a wizard into a cleric, with some reflavoring, and therefore we can kick the cleric out of the game. Technically true, but the cleric is sitting right there, why not just play a cleric instead of playing a wizards-as-cleric?

If it is okay to destroy the entire purpose of a class simply because someone else can get kind of close to fulfilling their narrative purpose if you squint…. Then we can reduce everything to wizard, as long as you’re happy with an anime style of game. I don’t mind my fighter swinging his sword and causing explosions after all, and with some reflavoring it completely works.

Yet, I imagine, the history of DnD as a game with distinctive classes instead of a class-less system is going to win out, because that’s what we come to DnD to experience.
 

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
It’s like saying you can turn a wizard into a cleric, with some reflavoring, and therefore we can kick the cleric out of the game. Technically true, but the cleric is sitting right there, why not just play a cleric instead of playing a wizards-as-cleric?

If it is okay to destroy the entire purpose of a class simply because someone else can get kind of close to fulfilling their narrative purpose if you squint…. Then we can reduce everything to wizard, as long as you’re happy with an anime style of game. I don’t mind my fighter swinging his sword and causing explosions after all, and with some reflavoring it completely works.

You say this, but the Warlock is currently cannibalizing the themes of the Cleric, and has been so for some time now. Why is it ok to take from the Cleric, or the other classes for that matter, but not the Sorcerer?
 

For those regarding the Loremaster Wizard's ability to burn extra spell slots to add extra effects as too powerful: Would requiring a higher-level slot (as the 3.x metamagic used to) rather than an additional slot put the subclass into better balance?
Or would it be too far in the other direction?

(So, for example a Fireball with added force damage would cost a 4th-level slot rather than a 3rd and a 1st-level slot. A Fireball with a mile range would cost a 5th-level slot. etc.)
 


Chaosrex

First Post
I loved my Hexblade in 4th Ed.

But one of the problems it had there, and still has now, is that its just a Warlock variant.

i feel that it should be its own class, just like Swordmages in 4th where their own class, and not a Mage or Figther sub-class, variant.

Keep the Dark theme and Patronage, spell lists would be close to Paladins and rangers/sorcerors, except all the spells are delivered through the weapon, think like the magus and his Arcane strike in PF, with some of them in close aoe forms like a wide area slash attack.

While i like evocations, its a Warlock thing, so change it with "Dark Gifts" or Dark Arts "stances"?

let the Hexblade progression be tied to the Pact weapon, each weapon could have a different type of Hex tied to it, or having more then one Hex, that changes given the situation and/or pact weapon used.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
For those regarding the Loremaster Wizard's ability to burn extra spell slots to add extra effects as too powerful: Would requiring a higher-level slot (as the 3.x metamagic used to) rather than an additional slot put the subclass into better balance?
Or would it be too far in the other direction?

(So, for example a Fireball with added force damage would cost a 4th-level slot rather than a 3rd and a 1st-level slot. A Fireball with a mile range would cost a 5th-level slot. etc.)

The effects themselves are too powerful. And they infringe on the sorcerer playing field. Shifting the cost like that won't help things, and I think it might actually make things worse as it is a lesser cost.

I would do the following changes:

The loremaster has to prepare the altered versions of the spells. If the loremaster prepares an altered version he cannot have the normal version at the same time. Each altered version can be used only once, leaving a hole in your prepared spells. Tame the abilities, no straight +2 to DC, and not turning 30' into a mile, (Maybe add like 10'-15'), and not straight damage (Instead rerroll up to 3 damage rolls) The altered versions require a higher level slot. there is a cap to them (like 1+Int bonus). The loremaster gets only some of these abilities as they level up and not all at once. And definitely remove the ability to cast any spell you want from any spell list.
 

Mercule

Adventurer
I'm kinda with cbwjm on this. I've never really understood the point of the Sorcerer: it's just a Wizard with alternative spell slot mechanics and Charisma as spellcasting stat. Everything else is fluff.

The Warlock feels more distinct, although honestly I detest "Eldritch Blast". I skipped a couple of editions and came back during Next and was stunned that so many players thought that Eldritch Blast defined the Warlock. I was all, "So...they're Evokers, fluffed with a Patron?" A nuker by another name. I wish Warlocks didn't have direct damage cantrips.
Agreed. In 3E, we just used the Sorcerer class for folks who wanted a Wizard with less crappy rules for preparation. Table fluff was that Sorcerers leaned a few things well instead of getting breadth.

Since I'm not a huge fan of Wild Mages, it seemed silly to have a class with only one kit. I actually converted the Dragon bloodline to a Warlock Patron (Elder Wyrm) and created a Pact of Blood that represented a birthright, rather than a deal. Metamagic was handled as Invocations that required Blood Pact. No one took the Blood Pact, but the Wyrm was used for a Warlock who served Eberron's Chamber. I kinda liked how it worked out.

We're starting up CoS, tomorrow night, and we'll see what happens. With all the new Sorcerer kits in UA, I'm inclined to put the Sorcerer back in and just move on with life. If folks want me to convert the bloodlines to Warlock Patrons, it's pretty darn trivial.
 

mellored

Hero
I would be ok with medium armor and shelds but would really put the charisma on attack rolls on an invokation so it is at least level 2 and costs you an invocation slot. So you really have to pay for the privilege of a single attribute attack stat.
Warlocks already pay heavily to use weapons.
 




mellored

Hero
Level 3 and level 1 is different. Also you have to use a staff.
There's no disadvantage with a staff. It works with polearm master and a shield.


IMO:
Level 1: You can use Cha to-hit, but still use Str/Dex for damage.

Invocation: Life Thirsting blade
You gain proficiency in martial weapons. At level 5 you can multi-attack. At level 11 you can add +Cha to your damage.
 

Ganymede81

First Post
I think that was me.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the warlock can't do anything that round. I'm saying that they can't take any other action that round in order to use a feature the next round. If the fighter had to forgo their actions on one round in order to use action surge the next or if the Paladin had to give up their action in order to smite the following turn I think people would be up in arms.

I think this is bad design. It's easy enough to make a invocation that adds a particular feature without requiring a specific weapon. For example, instead of a flail your weapon warps and twists in reality and gains +5ft reach. Instead of a mace your weapon is surrounded by an infernal force that blasts out when hit. Instead of a Greatsword your weapon is surrounded by energy and does extra damage of the weapons type. Even the bow is bad because it, like the greatsword, eliminate small characters from using these options. If they opened bow to any bow then small characters could create a short bow and it would work.

They are flavorful, but they're also tied to mechanics. It would be no different if they said that in order to use the two weapon fighting style you had to use scimitars or that if you wanted to use dueling it had to be a longsword. Flavor with open mechanics is 1000% better than flavor with locked mechanics. One provides options, the other limits them.

I'll be suggesting something along these lines in the next survey.
 

Ahrimon

Bourbon and Dice
The effects themselves are too powerful. And they infringe on the sorcerer playing field. Shifting the cost like that won't help things, and I think it might actually make things worse as it is a lesser cost.

I would do the following changes:

The loremaster has to prepare the altered versions of the spells. If the loremaster prepares an altered version he cannot have the normal version at the same time. Each altered version can be used only once, leaving a hole in your prepared spells. Tame the abilities, no straight +2 to DC, and not turning 30' into a mile, (Maybe add like 10'-15'), and not straight damage (Instead rerroll up to 3 damage rolls) The altered versions require a higher level slot. there is a cap to them (like 1+Int bonus). The loremaster gets only some of these abilities as they level up and not all at once. And definitely remove the ability to cast any spell you want from any spell list.

I wouldn't mind seeing that they had to prepare the modified versions ahead of time and they cost a higher slot but at the same effect level. So for example, to prepare a spell with a different element it must be cast at a minimum slot of it's level +1 and you calculate it's effect at a level of slot -1. So cold ball has to be cast at a minimum of a 4th level spell, but when calculating the damage it is considered a 3rd level spell. If you cast it as a 5th level spell the damage is at 4th level.

This allows a wizard to adjust their spells but still gives per-eminance to the sorcerer who can alter spells on the fly.
 

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