Unexpected TPK: Unbalanced, bad circumstances, or fluke?

[Jhaelen]

No. I'm the only one here who doesn't play beginner D&D Hack & Slash.

Well, the thing is, I happen to know several players who aren't beginners and still enjoy their hack & slash.

Because, you know, hack & slash is just a play style, it's not inherently superior or inferior to other play styles.


Besides, judging from what I've read in this thread you're wrong in your judgement about the situation.
It looks as if it's really been mostly a streak of bad luck that couldn't have been avoided by any amount of careful planning.
It didn't necessarily have to end with a TPK, but it definitely couldn't have ended as a victory for the PCs either.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

And I don't need to be told what lead up to the combat. If the group didn't run away from a combat they couldn't handle, then they failed when they decided to fight it.

And if they chose to fight a combat they could overcome, and then still failed due to poor tactics, then it was still the players who need to improve, right?

Oh yes, it's always one of the other. Always. You never get stuck with fight you can't avoid. Ambushes never happens. Enemies are always slower than the PC and retreat is always an option. Yes sir!

 

[TheNovaLord]

Two beetle ; 200XP
3 minion ; presumably 75xp but I can 't be sure since must have made them up.

.

er, its all made up, but yeah. Better moderate for your first ever roleplaying game than a TPK

 

[OakwoodDM]

I ran my 2 player party through a combat with 2 fire beetles as a combat test last weeked, and they pretty much strolled it. Without a defender. Admittedly they managed to position themselves so that the beetles coudn't get them both with the fire spray, but I don't think it would have made much difference. The cleric was attacked by both fire sprays, after all.

And as for those saying a defender is a must, my players were playing a Cleric and a Rogue (by pure coincidence, a Leader and a Striker, exactly what the DMG recommends for a 2 player party). They did fine except against the Needlefang Drake Swarm, and I don't think a paladin would have made a jot of difference there.

 

[sinecure]

Besides, judging from what I've read in this thread you're wrong in your judgment about the situation.
It looks as if it's really been mostly a streak of bad luck that couldn't have been avoided by any amount of careful planning.
It didn't necessarily have to end with a TPK, but it definitely couldn't have ended as a victory for the PCs either.

So unavoidable instant death is still in the game? Hallelujah. Unless you're saying the beetles should have taken prisoners?

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

er, its all made up, but yeah. Better moderate for your first ever roleplaying game than a TPK

Yes, but 275 XP is no challenge at all to 4 level 1 PC.

Don't be afraid to do 400xp for 4 players. These are easy fights that shouldn't require the dailies.

The OP situation is really caused by the higher swinginess of having just 2 PC and none of them being a defender. My campaign has a balanced party of 4 and they can handle tough fights.

You'll only get in trouble with 400xp at level 1 if the players are using very bad tactics (Beyond beginner and into idiocy ; never really saw those myself) orr if the 400XP was achieved by using only one or two monsters of much higher level than the PC.

You can go as high as 600xp for a big fight if they still have most of their dailies available. Those are really fun fight but by this point make sure the players are in tune with 4e tactics because now we're talking real risk. Those are the best fights because your decisions matter a lot more.

 

[TheNovaLord]

wrote the adventure from scratch, as none of us can do dungeon crawls anymore. Took 5 hours real life to play the below 14 'encounters' , with just one extended rest, and it all seemed to flow SO much better than 3.5. 1 person had never RPGed before

275xp for slaying the beetles
300xp for killing the bats
25xp for keeping Justin alive
100xp for rescuing Justine, skill challenge
65xp for dialogue at Townhall
475xp for killing Kruthiks
50xp to slay spider (plus?)
125xp for escape spider horde alive, skill challenge
88xp for killing spider minions
25xp for quality report
75xp for agreeing to help engineers
50xp-75xp for reassuring the worried, minor skill challenge
375xp for defeating the risen dead.
125xp for surviving the trap.
75xp for calming the guardians, minor skill challenge
50xp quest award for setting the Eyes.
350xp for wiping out the couriers guild
50xp for leaving no evidence or not disturbing the Temple guardians
25xp for any help blocking the pass
200xp Finished Quest Award.

wondered off topic, but i am thus far impressed with 4e

 

[MrGrenadine]

No. I'm the only one here who doesn't play beginner D&D Hack & Slash.

And I don't need to be told what lead up to the combat. If the group didn't run away from a combat they couldn't handle, then they failed when they decided to fight it.

Setting aside the nasty tone, which is completely unnecessary in an otherwise civil and interesting conversation, it seems like you're assuming that:

The characters had faced fire beetles before, and therefore knew exactly what they were up against.​

Or

The players were using meta-game knowledge of the fire beetle stat block to know exactly what the characters were up against.​

You're right--D&D isn't a miniatures game, and as such, its just good RP for players *not* to act on information that the characters wouldn't have.

So, if the characters didn't know anything about fire beetles, it seems reasonable for the characters to try to face down a couple of big bugs, and then find themselves on the (near) losing end of the argument when the bugs turned out to have a pretty devastating area attack.

Sometimes, despite good tactics, and with some bad luck, battles go awry. That's D&D! Roll up a new character and try again--hopefully all the wiser.


MrG

p.s. If the characters had already faced fire beetles, and knew they were overpowered, and tried to fight them anyway, well, then yeah--thats on them. But still, there's no need for the tone.

[OBVIOUS] Its just a game. [/OBVIOUS]

 

[Mengu]

To the original poster: 4th Edition is a game of Paper, Rock, and Scissors. Throwing Brutes(rock) at the party generally calls for Defenders(paper) to counter. That means significantly higher AC to balance out the strong damage potential of the brutes.

As another poster suggested, I'd limit the number of Brutes you toss at the party, but Artillery, Lurkers, and Skirmishers should be fine pickings.

Indeed, this is something to really pay attention to. If there is no controller in the party, shy away from too many minions. If there is no defender in the party, shy away from Brutes. If there is no leader in the party, shy away from controllers. If there is no striker in the party, shy away from artillary positioned in hard to reach places. This is all spelled out in the DMG, Building a Party section.

Also the DMG clearly states, when designing an encounter, it is the DM's job to make sure the party has the tools to deal with it. For instance, if a creature is 4 levels above the party's level, they can typically handle it fine, but if said creature has some strong regeneration capabilities, which negates all the damage done to it, they will be hard pressed to survive that fight.

This encounter with the 2 firebeetles falls in that category of too hard of an encounter, especially when you look at the party composition. Between the 2 firebeetles, they have the ability to drop one character before he can act. For a party of 5, dropping one character would be a 20% loss, and fluke rolls are less likely to happen, when they are spread against 5 characters. For a party of 2, dropping one character is a 50% loss of resources. This is way too dangerous.

Running a game for 2 players requires a lot of finesse, and adventures should carefully be designed with the roles of the characters in mind. A leader and a striker is actually the recommended composition for a party of two (though I would prefer Defender and Leader). You just have to use fewer brutes, more skirmishers, fewer minions. Also create reasons for an NPC to travel with the party, as often as is feasible. They might have a Ranger guide who helps them through a forest. They might have a Rogue trapfinder, helping them through a dungeon. They might have a Fighter, helping them guard a caravan. They might have a Wizard who hires them as helpers to clean up a bug infestation. The role of the third wheel doesn't really matter much since you want to focus the adventure around the two players anyway, but the NPC will help you solve a lot of otherwise sticky situations.

 

[FadedC]

And I don't need to be told what lead up to the combat. If the group didn't run away from a combat they couldn't handle, then they failed when they decided to fight it.

And if they chose to fight a combat they could overcome, and then still failed due to poor tactics, then it was still the players who need to improve, right?

The cleric never even got to take an action due to poor initiative. That doesn't exactly leave much room to run away or change tactics.

As for your claim that the party failed when they decided to go outdoors and risk being attacked....actually I really can't come up with anything suitably apropriate to say about that.