Unfair Character Death?

[Brother Shatterstone]

I failed to see how a veteran player could mistake a triggered spell effect for anything other than a magical trap.

I was wrong, but I did not cause the death of his character. His inability to comprehend magical traps did that.

I will not apologize for his failure to understand the rules and abilities of his character.

You know... Metagaming goes both ways.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Still, I find it hard to believe that this player could mistake an Evard's Black Tentacles effect that came out of nowhere for anything but a magical trap.

If it were me as the player, my first thought would be that the spell had been cast remotely, perhaps through a crystal ball, or cast Stilled and Silent by an invisible foe. I'd need Patryn's type of description regarding runes, etc. to lead me to the conclusion that it was a trap. Now, if there had been several mechanical traps before the magical one, then maybe I'd have caught on, but generally I don't think of spells coming from traps.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought you should know that there are other players out there who wouldn't find it "obviously" a magical trap. Obviously magical, sure. Obviously a trap, not so much.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Reasonable Assumption

If the PC would have know [sic], and you've stated this as fact, than you should be forthcoming with the information. (IMHO, your world, your game, but your here asking for our opinions.)

1. I assumed he did know; as a PC and a player.

2. All of the veteran players (minus the culprit) at the table did know.

3. Telling a veteran player that he triggered an Evard's Black Tentacles spell is description enough. Telling him that it's also a magical trap is tantamount to telling a cleric that a mace is a blunt weapon.

 

[Crothian]

I failed to see how a veteran player could mistake a triggered spell effect for anything other than a magical trap.

I was wrong, but I did not cause the death of his character. His inability to comprehend magical traps did that.

I will not apologize for his failure to understand the rules and abilities of his character.

So, is the guy really your friend? It doesn't seem like it since you are unwilling to concieve the slightiest possible you might share the blame. I'm just suggestioning apologizing and taking thee high road or taking one for the team to save the friendship. It seems like the guy is equally stuborn from your descriptions so this stupid little game could end a friendship, but it seems to me from these few postys thats what both of you want since neither is willing to meet the other half way.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And I think we're back to back-patting now (non-jokingly), rather than serious criticism of what may have been the DM's mistakes.

Is the player blameless? No.

Is the DM? Based on this thread, also no.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

1. I assumed he did know; as a PC and a player.

Assumption The mother of all...

2. All of the veteran players at the table did know.

So this guy was a new player? Cause at least one of your players didn't know.

3. Telling a veteran player that he triggered an Evard's Black Tentacles spell is description enough. Telling him that it's also a magical trap is tantamount to telling a cleric that a mace is a blunt weapon.

If you say so, I've been playing since 86 and I might not have drawn the conclusion that my pc would have.

It might seem so easy when you have all the answers because you’re behind the screen...

 

[BWP]

Well, it is not that black and white. From a certain point of few you did make a mistake, you failed to give him the information to make an informed choice based on character information the player wasn't aware of. That seems to be how he sees it, and if he really is a friend taking his view point into consideration and apologizing is not out of line.

Just because it's possible to see something from a "certain point of view" does not automatically make that point of view reasonable. From the situation as it has been described here, it seems obvious to me that the player was being lazy and/or stupid. (Why this might be the case is impossible for us to judge; I've known perfectly competent and expert players to make utterly stupid mistakes for no obviously good reason.) Regardless of the reason, though, having his character die as a consequence seems entirely appropriate, and it's not appropriate for the player to get pissy about it and blame the DM. That's just childish behaviour no matter how you slice it.

I mean, this trap was triggered three times and nobody even suspected it was a trap? The guys I play with would have been using Search (and every other "detect stuff" option available to them) on every square inch after the first one.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

More Assumptions

Maybe it's just me, but I thought you should know that there are other players out there who wouldn't find it "obviously" a magical trap. Obviously magical, sure. Obviously a trap, not so much.

Good point; however:

1. He never bothered to find out what it was.

2. He assumed it was some non-specific spell effect that could not be tampered with. There is no such thing in the game (all ward spells have Search/Disable DCs).

Still, what else could a triggered Evard's Tentacles spell be, if not a trap?

 

[Crothian]

3. Telling a veteran player that he triggered an Evard's Black Tentacles spell is description enough. Telling him that it's also a magical trap is tantamount to telling a cleric that a mace is a blunt weapon.

I've been gaming for over 20 years usually in the fantasy genre. Last year though after a long week of work and other things during the game I forgot what a flail was. Sometimes due to outside reasons, players just ar enot up to knowing everything they should. We don't live and breath these fantasy worlds and some simple things slip by us every now and again. That's why there is a DM to help the players out when they need it. You are either for the players and willing to give them the benifit of the doubt; or you are against them and not willing to give them any slack.

 

[Crothian]

Just because it's possible to see something from a "certain point of view" does not automatically make that point of view reasonable.

Ya, and calling your friend out for this behavior is not going to help either. It doesn't matter who was right and who was wroing, apologize, be the bigger man, and move on. Its not like you are giving the character new life and a do over.

From the situation as it has been described here, it seems obvious to me that the player was being lazy and/or stupid. (Why this might be the case is impossible for us to judge; I've known perfectly competent and expert players to make utterly stupid mistakes for no obviously good reason.) Regardless of the reason, though, having his character die as a consequence seems entirely appropriate, and it's not appropriate for the player to get pissy about it and blame the DM. That's just childish behaviour no matter how you slice it.

And again an apology is not a free pass. No one is saying redo the encounter or anything, but it is possible there are reasons we don't know about that lead to this situation.

I mean, this trap was triggered three times and nobody even suspected it was a trap? The guys I play with would have been using Search (and every other "detect stuff" option available to them) on every square inch after the first one.

Well, it isn't your players who are at this table though. All that matters is what they did. The guy missed it, but it seems like the DM is not willing to cut him any slack and just totally blame the player when it is easily possible the blame is shared.