unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp

[Notmousse]

I do hope you're joking about the whip comment...

 

[IcyCool]

I do hope you're joking about the whip comment...

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=138686

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=183517

I think there was at least one more thread, but I can't find it at the moment.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But the table doesnt show sunder on it

Uh, sure it does...?

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

No i dont

However sunder says you can use it as a melee attack, you've already said you agree on this. Where does it say, in the rules, anywhere, that even if the text says you can use your melee attack to do something, if its a standard action, then you cant use it on an attack of opportunity.

You've agreed that that being a melee attack doesn't determine what kind of action the melee attack is. That's correct, and we all agree on that.

A melee attack could be a Standard Action, or part of a Full Round Action, or part of an AoO....

So how do we know what kind of action it is?

.....We look at the table. The table says it is a Standard Action. The table does not contradict the text, it augments and clarifies it. Since it is a Standard Action, we can use it any other time we could use a Standard Action.

Done.

 

[Nail]

And am tired of arguing the same thigns over and over to people who dont like to read whats written.

Are you sure that we disagree with you because we "don't like to read what's written"?

 

[KarinsDad]

...so long as there is a discrepancy between the table and the text.

There isn't.

If you say so.

I understand that the table does not allow Sunder AoOs.

But, the text of Sunder and the text of AoOs both state melee attacks and do not list sunder as an exception.

And, the Dec FAQ disagrees with your POV as well: page 48

while the same Ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity which you could make against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt)

Granted, this is in a paragraph concerning a house rule of allowing an AoO against the weapon of a creature, even though the creature is not in threat range.

However, that is not the important part. The important part is that it does not mention sundering against a weapon during an AoO as a house rule, it is written that sunder as AoOs is the normal rule (same for disarm).


Ditto for page 50 of the FAQ. The Cleric sundering the Fighter's weapon as an AoO is not corrected, it is discussed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I understand that the table does not allow Sunder AoOs.

But, the text of Sunder and the text of AoOs both state melee attacks and do not list sunder as an exception.

The Wish spell description states "By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you."

Is this generally true? Or is it only true in the context of casting the Wish spell?

The table says you can't cast the spell until 17th level. The text of the spell states that you can alter reality by simply speaking aloud! Should we assume, then, that this contradiction can be resolved by the text trumping the table? Or should we assume that the text found under Wish, stating that "by simply speaking aloud" we can alter reality only applies if we've satisfied the condition of casting the Wish spell?

I have no problem with the idea that you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon. But this sentence only applies in a certain context; when we have satisfied the condition of taking the Sunder action.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have no problem with the idea that you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon. But this sentence only applies in a certain context; when we have satisfied the condition of taking the Sunder action.

Not according to the FAQ.

And if the entry was not in the table, I suspect you would be taking the opposing POV.

Unlike Bullrush and Overrun, the Sunder text does not state Standard Action.

 

[RigaMortus2]

You've agreed that that being a melee attack doesn't determine what kind of action the melee attack is. That's correct, and we all agree on that.

A melee attack could be a Standard Action, or part of a Full Round Action, or part of an AoO....

So how do we know what kind of action it is?

.....We look at the table. The table says it is a Standard Action. The table does not contradict the text, it augments and clarifies it. Since it is a Standard Action, we can use it any other time we could use a Standard Action.

Done.

Ya know... I've always sided with the "Sunder is a melee attack, the table is wrong" side, but I am slowly begining to see your point here...

The way I see it (now) is there are 3 things going on... The Special Attack you want to take(Sunder), the attack type you use to perform it (melee attack) and the actual Action that it uses up (Standard Action). Comparing Sunder & Disarm, we have:


Special Attack: Disarm
Attack Type: melee attack
Action: Text does not specify the Action type. Per the text, it varies, and has the foot note that it substitutes for anytime you would be allowed a melee attack.

Special Attack: Sunder (same as Disarm)
Attack Type: melee attack (same as Disarm)
Action: Text does not specify the Action type (same as Disarm). Per the text, it is a Standard Action.

Since Sunder and Disarm are pretty similiar, why is it ok to go by the Table entry for Disarm but not Sunder? Both do not specify the Action type to perform them within the text, and to assume they can both just be used anytime you qualify for a melee attack is just that, an assumption. However, if we look them both up in the table, we no longer have that assumption.

 

[RigaMortus2]

But, the text of Sunder and the text of AoOs both state melee attacks and do not list sunder as an exception.

An Attack of Opportunity a single melee attack. What kind of action is it? Don't know. It doesn't say in the text and there is no table to refer us to. Some claim it falls under the "Not an Action" category, but who's to say for sure? It simply is not clarified anywhere.

Sunder, on the other hand, is a Special Attack (which I hope we can agree an AoO is NOT). When you perform the Sunder special attack, you can use a melee attack to with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield an opponent is holding. The problem lies in the fact that, we don't know (a) what kind of Action type this requires or if we should simply (b) assume that anytime you are eligible to take a melee attack (Standard, Full Round, even an AoO), you are eligible for a Sunder. The text simply does not state what type of Action it takes, and it simply doesn't state that anytime we are eligible for a melee attack, we can Sunder. Those are both assumptions. Luckily, we have a table to go to which clarifies this for us...