D&D General Unpopular Opinion?: D&D is a terrible venue for horror

[TheSword]

Except that I don't find them frightening at all. Alien wasn't a bad film, but xenomorphs don't scare me, even with the chest bursting. And Jaws? That's about a natural predator, not a monster. Predators are dangerous, but not frightening to me. The scariest thing about Jaws was how stupid the town's officials were. I think they're all going to need a bigger brain. The other films are either monster movies or "scary" movies, and that just doesn't interest me.



Agreed, and I'm not likely to get in the mood at all.



Well look at D&D's influences, like Conan. Howard wrote his stories for Weird Tales, which went for horror. And in many stories Conan faced things that were supposed to be horrific. Where he could, Conan usually ended up defeating the horrors. He did run away in some stories when he couldn't defeat something, but usually he'd be kicking ass instead.

So based on your avowed dislike of horror, do you think you’re best placed to say whether d&d can work for the horror genre?

It’s kind of like a vegetarian telling a chef they can’t make good bolognaise with beef shin...

 

[TheSword]

I think the first is probably a lofty goal. If the DM succeeds to make some of his players feel scared, that is a great accomplishment, but the latter should probably be the expectation.

I think no DM will be able to keep his players scared constantly. At best you can aim to keep them at the edge of their seats with a great horror ambiance, and scare them occasionally.

Absolutely, I go so far as to say you don’t want to keep them scared!

Contrast, lulling into a false sense of security and surprise are all useful tools for horror.

 

[TheSword]

It’s the reason why I have no problem with laughter in a horror game.

 

[Reynard]

This is a hell of a point.

Does “horror in d&d” require the players to (at times and to varied degrees) feel scared?

OR

Are the dark fantasy trappings and ambiance enough to satisfy the horror genre?

And? Or? Both? I’m certainly curious to see some opinions.

At least insofar as I intended it in this thread, trappings aren't enough to say D&D does horror. A genre is more than its trappings. Horror without fear and desperation is just a metal album cover.

As an example, both R. E. Howard and H. P. Lovecraft (who were both big influences on D&D) filled their stories with the trappings of horror, but D&D can do Conan effectively but not The Color Out of Space.

 

[TheSword]

At least insofar as I intended it in this thread, trappings aren't enough to say D&D does horror. A genre is more than its trappings. Horror without fear and desperation is just a metal album cover.

As an example, both R. E. Howard and H. P. Lovecraft (who were both big influences on D&D) filled their stories with the trappings of horror, but D&D can do Conan effectively but not The Color Out of Space.

Why do you think fear and desperation is beyond D&D’s ability to convey.

Lovecraft is a hard thing for films to do, let alone an Rpg.

I’ve seen D&D handle Dracula, Pitch Black, Invasion of the body Snatchers, alien, Resident evil, Silent Hill etc

 

[Oofta]

I still have to hear an explanation of mechanics* that make D&D incapable of horror. Want attrition to matter? Dream can interrupt your sleep. Want long term icky things? You have things like slaad that use humans as hosts. Mummy rot is deadly and a nasty way to go. Want players to not know what they're fighting? Change some fluff.

You just need to reconsider some "default" assumptions where you can run over to the local temple and make all your problems go away, get a long rest whenever you want or have +3 ... well anything. That warlock want to take the fiend pact? Make it matter. Have real consequences to choices. Crank the threat level up to 11 and make the PCs do a fighting retreat while the world burns around them.

You may need to think outside the box a bit, but I do that all the time anyway. To put it another way D&D may not be focused on horror. It may not even be the best (although if you say X is better, please explain why other than setting, fluff and tone). It may not be able to do all kinds of horror, but I can't think how you would be able to do some types of horror for more than a mini campaign anyway.

* Other than jenga for checks, which is not a long term sustainable thing

 

[Reynard]

I still have to hear an explanation of mechanics* that make D&D incapable of horror. Want attrition to matter? Dream can interrupt your sleep. Want long term icky things? You have things like slaad that use humans as hosts. Mummy rot is deadly and a nasty way to go. Want players to not know what they're fighting? Change some fluff.

You just need to reconsider some "default" assumptions where you can run over to the local temple and make all your problems go away, get a long rest whenever you want or have +3 ... well anything. That warlock want to take the fiend pact? Make it matter. Have real consequences to choices. Crank the threat level up to 11 and make the PCs do a fighting retreat while the world burns around them.

You may need to think outside the box a bit, but I do that all the time anyway. To put it another way D&D may not be focused on horror. It may not even be the best (although if you say X is better, please explain why other than setting, fluff and tone). It may not be able to do all kinds of horror, but I can't think how you would be able to do some types of horror for more than a mini campaign anyway.

* Other than jenga for checks, which is not a long term sustainable thing

A game is more than its core mechanics. D&D is more than "roll a d20 plus mod versus target number." All those base assumptions you need to eliminate or change in order to "do horror" with D&D means you aren't playing D&D horror, you are playing a d20 horror game. The nature of D&D characters, their resources, the certainty of the rules system, the accessibility and ease of magic, the preternatural survivability of the PCs -- these all work directly against horror. You have to beat the heroic out of D&D to turn it into horror, so much so that it isn't really recognizable as horror.

I want to reiterate that you can do tension and even fear in D&D. A good GM can evoke the right kinds of emotion sin their players to simulate the feeling of a good horror movie. But the experience of horror is about uncertainty and desperation, and D&D's inherent mechanics -- from cure light wounds to sneak attack to linear difficulty and binary results -- work directly in opposition to both uncertainty and desperation.

And I know am I using a pretty narrow definition of horror. That's intentional.

 

[Oofta]

A game is more than its core mechanics. D&D is more than "roll a d20 plus mod versus target number." All those base assumptions you need to eliminate or change in order to "do horror" with D&D means you aren't playing D&D horror, you are playing a d20 horror game. The nature of D&D characters, their resources, the certainty of the rules system, the accessibility and ease of magic, the preternatural survivability of the PCs -- these all work directly against horror. You have to beat the heroic out of D&D to turn it into horror, so much so that it isn't really recognizable as horror.

I want to reiterate that you can do tension and even fear in D&D. A good GM can evoke the right kinds of emotion sin their players to simulate the feeling of a good horror movie. But the experience of horror is about uncertainty and desperation, and D&D's inherent mechanics -- from cure light wounds to sneak attack to linear difficulty and binary results -- work directly in opposition to both uncertainty and desperation.

And I know am I using a pretty narrow definition of horror. That's intentional.

I don't run an equivalent of FR. Generally speaking, there are very few high level clerics and they are not always available. My current group is 9th level, I think everybody has 1 uncommon magical item (somebody might have 2), the fighter might have just gotten enough GP to get plate armor. They run out of healing on a regular basis and frequently can't get a long rest, they certainly can't do it whenever they want.

That doesn't make it any less D&D. The PCs supernatural abilities are countered by supernatural creatures that are just as powerful or more powerful than they are. I'm not running a horror campaign (I still don't know how that would be sustainable over 100s of hours of play), but I certainly have horror aspects now and then.

But anyway, I'm sure this will just be more "I'm right you're wrong". It's kind of like which company makes better cars, Honda or Toyota. The answer is always going to be "it depends". An opinion can't be proven, it's just an opinion. I think horror has everything to do with story and atmosphere, mechanical rules will never have much of a sustainable impact on a player's emotional state. YMMV.

 

[Reynard]

I don't run an equivalent of FR. Generally speaking, there are very few high level clerics and they are not always available. My current group is 9th level, I think everybody has 1 uncommon magical item (somebody might have 2), the fighter might have just gotten enough GP to get plate armor. They run out of healing on a regular basis and frequently can't get a long rest, they certainly can't do it whenever they want.

That doesn't make it any less D&D. The PCs supernatural abilities are countered by supernatural creatures that are just as powerful or more powerful than they are. I'm not running a horror campaign (I still don't know how that would be sustainable over 100s of hours of play), but I certainly have horror aspects now and then.

But anyway, I'm sure this will just be more "I'm right you're wrong". It's kind of like which company makes better cars, Honda or Toyota. The answer is always going to be "it depends". An opinion can't be proven, it's just an opinion. I think horror has everything to do with story and atmosphere, mechanical rules will never have much of a sustainable impact on a player's emotional state. YMMV.

To be clear, I think the horror elements in D&D are important and I use them a lot myself. I like those dark or gross or unsettling elements in my games and in my experience, most players consider those things to be fundamental to D&D. What is a mind flayer if not a Lovecraftian horror? When I say "D&D doesn't do horror" I am talking about the visceral experience. But I also don't think a lot of movies or games or books that are labeled horror do horror very well either. I am speaking of horror as a meta genre, not a collection of tropes or publishing category.

Anyway, I agree that we are at risk of repeating ourselves and not making much headway. I'm just glad we can enjoy a civil discussion about something we enjoy, even if we disagree on some details. It seems rare these days. Thanks.

 

[Voadam]

At least insofar as I intended it in this thread, trappings aren't enough to say D&D does horror. A genre is more than its trappings. Horror without fear and desperation is just a metal album cover.

As an example, both R. E. Howard and H. P. Lovecraft (who were both big influences on D&D) filled their stories with the trappings of horror, but D&D can do Conan effectively but not The Color Out of Space.

I felt the Lost Vault of Tsathzar Rho was a great take on a lot of elements from Color Out of Space in D&D. Investigating a standard monster attack turns into discovering a warping energy from beyond that affects creatures and the land. Playing through it the feel of magical corrupting radiation was strong and that we were risking it ourselves by being in there. Depending on the ending it can be very Color Out of Space IIRC.