D&D General Unpopular Opinion?: D&D is a terrible venue for horror

[Paul Farquhar]

At least insofar as I intended it in this thread, trappings aren't enough to say D&D does horror. A genre is more than its trappings. Horror without fear and desperation is just a metal album cover.

Trappings and tone, that's all it is. Hence the ever popular "...In Space" trope.

The Mandalorian is a Western with Science Fiction trappings.
Alien is Science Fiction with a horror tone. Aliens is a war movie with Science Fiction trappings and a horror tone.
The Martian is Robinson Crusoe with Science Fiction trappings.
Annihilation is the Colour out of Space with Science Fiction trappings and a horror tone. Actually, Annihilation is the Colour out of Space.

 

[jayoungr]

A game is more than its core mechanics. D&D is more than "roll a d20 plus mod versus target number." All those base assumptions you need to eliminate or change in order to "do horror" with D&D means you aren't playing D&D horror, you are playing a d20 horror game.

Yes, D&D is more than its core mechanics. Almost everything that has been suggested on this thread is just taking advantage of variant rules in the DMG. In what way is using those rules not playing D&D?

However, if you want something that is basically D&D but with added horror mechanics beyond what's in the DMG, you might want to take a look at this--it may suit your needs better:

Masque of the Red Death Player's Guide - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

Masque of the Red Death Player's Guide - Gothic Earth, first revealed in 1994 with the release of the Masque of the Red Death and Other Tales boxed set, allow

www.dmsguild.com

 

[Ace]

This is a hell of a point.

Does “horror in d&d” require the players to (at times and to varied degrees) feel scared?

OR

Are the dark fantasy trappings and ambiance enough to satisfy the horror genre?

And? Or? Both? I’m certainly curious to see some opinions.

Genuine horror is possible in roleplaying games under rare circumstances though getting to that requires players to be very deeply invested in the character and the game and in just the right head space. I've run crazy amounts of modern fantasy with horror trappings, more of this than anything else really and its happened exactly twice that I can remember.

It also kind of happened as a player in the form of serious squick during an attempt to play the Giovanni Chronicles (IIRC) but that didn't go far and the game ended after one session. Vampires are for staking, not PC's

Jump scares can happen too but this is again not what people consider horror.

Dark Fantasy though is easy to get to work and loading on the Gothic or other trappings can be rewarding and allow a "horror" vibe even though not everyone would call it that

if your group is into massive carnage , the Splatterpunk genre is certainly doable. Its technically horror and adding blood, gore, guts, pain, maiming and such to the descriptions is easy enough.

D&D 5e can even mange it with some minor house rules and by simply giving inspiration for the most lurid player description of kills.

This is not for everyone and frankly not really good for public venues but it is horror and I suppose could be fun with the right group though you can count me out.

 

[jayoungr]

Maybe it would help if those who say D&D can't do horror would describe what an ideal session of a horror game (any system) would look like for them. What sorts of things would the PCs be doing, and/or how would the players be thinking/feeling/engaging with the story? Then we'd have a basis for discussing whether that needs mechanics or can be done with roleplay, and whether D&D can create that feeling in either case.

For example, for those who have mentioned Dread, I'm guessing that what you want from horror is for the players to be thinking extremely hard about every action, feeling the sense that things will inevitably go bad at some point, and feeling apprehension about whether any individual decision will be the one that makes everything come (literally) crashing down?

 

[Pauper]

I'm going to agree with the OP on this one, because, regardless of the particular style of horror you're trying to run (gothic horror, survival horror, etc.), all horror basically boils down to the same basic premise -- you are not important. One great example I saw earlier in the thread points this out

Like, I once managed to evoke tremendous horror just by describing a giant's castle in a lot of detail, and emphasizing how much bigger everything was than the PCs. They weren't confused, I wasn't delaying reveals, or even making them wonder what was around the corner - they knew what was going on and were relatively safe in their invisible exploring, but it was sufficiently upsetting that they became horrified anyway, and had things gone pear-shaped (which was unlikely but possible), they knew they were totally stuffed, which helped reinforce the horror.

By wandering through a giant's castle, seeing how everything is on a scale much larger than the PCs can make use of -- it's clear that the space they're in isn't meant for them, and that realization produces horror.

D&D, particularly 5E but to some degree in nearly every edition, tells players that their PCs are heroes, special, important people. Their actions have consequences, can change the world and decide the fate of nations. The rules tell the DM to consistently have the same actions produce the same results, so the characters can not only predict how their actions will have an effect in the world, but so that they can ultimately achieve mastery over that world by understanding the rules and how they allow the PCs to achieve their goals. Horror, whatever the flavor, dies under these presumptions. You may be able to provoke horror in specific moments, when describing a giant's castle or the underground lair of a pod of illithids, but it won't stick -- as soon as the players figure out the boss giant is AC 19 and has 230 HP, they know they've got a shot of defeating it, and a pretty good idea of how good a shot they have.

If there is one aspect of 5E D&D that could be used to produce a horror game, it's this:

(in the midst of a Road Runner cartoon, the camera cuts to two kids watching the cartoon)
Kid 1: You know, I feel sorry for the coyote. I wish he would catch the road runner.
Kid 2: Yeah, but if he did, there wouldn't be any more cartoon.
Kid 1: Oh, right.

Regardless of how many cultists or monstrosities the characters defeat, no matter how many times they save the world, there will always be more enemies, more evil plans, more chances for the world to be corrupted or destroyed. And that, ultimately, ties back to one of the classic themes of cosmic horror: no matter how many times the heroes seem to succeed, no matter how often they appear to defeat their enemies, those enemies don't go away; they simply retreat into the shadows to emerge once they've gathered their strength again. The heroes are ultimately powerless to defeat evil, because if they did so, there wouldn't be a game anymore.

That is the kernel of horror lying at the heart of all adventure games. And it's one the players and DM can never really accept, because if they did, it would render their adventures pointless and their victories hollow. But all the same, it's there, waiting to be discovered.

--
Pauper

 

[Oofta]

I'm going to agree with the OP on this one, because, regardless of the particular style of horror you're trying to run (gothic horror, survival horror, etc.), all horror basically boils down to the same basic premise -- you are not important. One great example I saw earlier in the thread points this out



By wandering through a giant's castle, seeing how everything is on a scale much larger than the PCs can make use of -- it's clear that the space they're in isn't meant for them, and that realization produces horror.

D&D, particularly 5E but to some degree in nearly every edition, tells players that their PCs are heroes, special, important people. Their actions have consequences, can change the world and decide the fate of nations. The rules tell the DM to consistently have the same actions produce the same results, so the characters can not only predict how their actions will have an effect in the world, but so that they can ultimately achieve mastery over that world by understanding the rules and how they allow the PCs to achieve their goals. Horror, whatever the flavor, dies under these presumptions. You may be able to provoke horror in specific moments, when describing a giant's castle or the underground lair of a pod of illithids, but it won't stick -- as soon as the players figure out the boss giant is AC 19 and has 230 HP, they know they've got a shot of defeating it, and a pretty good idea of how good a shot they have.

If there is one aspect of 5E D&D that could be used to produce a horror game, it's this:

(in the midst of a Road Runner cartoon, the camera cuts to two kids watching the cartoon)
Kid 1: You know, I feel sorry for the coyote. I wish he would catch the road runner.
Kid 2: Yeah, but if he did, there wouldn't be any more cartoon.
Kid 1: Oh, right.

Regardless of how many cultists or monstrosities the characters defeat, no matter how many times they save the world, there will always be more enemies, more evil plans, more chances for the world to be corrupted or destroyed. And that, ultimately, ties back to one of the classic themes of cosmic horror: no matter how many times the heroes seem to succeed, no matter how often they appear to defeat their enemies, those enemies don't go away; they simply retreat into the shadows to emerge once they've gathered their strength again. The heroes are ultimately powerless to defeat evil, because if they did so, there wouldn't be a game anymore.

That is the kernel of horror lying at the heart of all adventure games. And it's one the players and DM can never really accept, because if they did, it would render their adventures pointless and their victories hollow. But all the same, it's there, waiting to be discovered.

--
Pauper

But nothing intrinsic to the rules means you always win or can always defeat the bad guys. It's certainly not true in my games. Sometimes the best you can do is put the apocalypse off to another day.

So, again, that doesn't really answer the questions everyone has been asking. I know the base assumptions don't lend themselves to horror, but most of what you just said is fluff, tone and the DM not turning it up to 11.

 

[TheSword]

I'm going to agree with the OP on this one, because, regardless of the particular style of horror you're trying to run (gothic horror, survival horror, etc.), all horror basically boils down to the same basic premise -- you are not important. One great example I saw earlier in the thread points this out



By wandering through a giant's castle, seeing how everything is on a scale much larger than the PCs can make use of -- it's clear that the space they're in isn't meant for them, and that realization produces horror.

D&D, particularly 5E but to some degree in nearly every edition, tells players that their PCs are heroes, special, important people. Their actions have consequences, can change the world and decide the fate of nations. The rules tell the DM to consistently have the same actions produce the same results, so the characters can not only predict how their actions will have an effect in the world, but so that they can ultimately achieve mastery over that world by understanding the rules and how they allow the PCs to achieve their goals. Horror, whatever the flavor, dies under these presumptions. You may be able to provoke horror in specific moments, when describing a giant's castle or the underground lair of a pod of illithids, but it won't stick -- as soon as the players figure out the boss giant is AC 19 and has 230 HP, they know they've got a shot of defeating it, and a pretty good idea of how good a shot they have.

If there is one aspect of 5E D&D that could be used to produce a horror game, it's this:

(in the midst of a Road Runner cartoon, the camera cuts to two kids watching the cartoon)
Kid 1: You know, I feel sorry for the coyote. I wish he would catch the road runner.
Kid 2: Yeah, but if he did, there wouldn't be any more cartoon.
Kid 1: Oh, right.

Regardless of how many cultists or monstrosities the characters defeat, no matter how many times they save the world, there will always be more enemies, more evil plans, more chances for the world to be corrupted or destroyed. And that, ultimately, ties back to one of the classic themes of cosmic horror: no matter how many times the heroes seem to succeed, no matter how often they appear to defeat their enemies, those enemies don't go away; they simply retreat into the shadows to emerge once they've gathered their strength again. The heroes are ultimately powerless to defeat evil, because if they did so, there wouldn't be a game anymore.

That is the kernel of horror lying at the heart of all adventure games. And it's one the players and DM can never really accept, because if they did, it would render their adventures pointless and their victories hollow. But all the same, it's there, waiting to be discovered.

--
Pauper

There are lots and lots of horror films where people survive and make a difference. Take the Conjuring films for instance. One family and a couple of investigators vs one foul spirit. Not all D&D needs to be world changing. The Tiers of play are a relatively new development and most gaming takes place Tier 1 and 2 anyway. It’s possible to extend the local heroics to include tier 2 as well.

There are many types of horror of which world shattering cosmic horror is only one.

Good players will view saving the soul of one possessed girl as just as important as saving half the universe. “Whoever saves one person saves the world entire.” There is nothing pointless about banishing the demon and saving that child even if the demon is free to possess again when it reassembles. That’s a fight for another day and maybe another person. Read the Wheel of Time for a good example of this.

I think comic books/films have a lot to answer for regarding the expectations around stakes. First off the protagonists save a few people. Then the next writer comes along and has to up the ante so says they’re going to save the city. The next series they have to up the ante again and save the country, then the world, then the galaxy, then half the living universe. The family in the first conjuring film evokes more pathos than Avengers: Endgame.

 

[Campbell]

For me horror is primarily about empathy for a normal person put into a desperate situation. The tension in the story is all about how they make through ordeal if they even do. Who are they at the other end?

I would not say you could not as a group tell a horror story in D&D. We do not need any mechanics to roleplay after all. It sure is not optimal though. On one hand you have counterproductive mechanics like turn by turn combat mechanics, hit points, and a plethora of mechanisms that separate you from the immediate fiction. You have no mechanics that help you to get inside the heads of these characters. Most importantly there are massively counterproductive play procedures. Modern D&D is primarily an exercise in group problem solving to complete an adventure prepared ahead of time by the GM. These procedures create an abundance of emotional distance between the players and the characters.

I am not saying you cannot get there. It is just immensely more difficult to do so. I mean I have done it, but it is so much harder than using games tuned to those purposes. Game design is not mind control, but it is immensely important. You will never get people to do things they hard line do not want to do, but the right procedures, gameplay loops, and reward systems do volumes.

It's like if you want to build your upper pectoral muscles you can do overhead press and try to pause in the right places and slow your eccentrics. Alternatively you can just do an elevated bench press and target the muscle directly.

 

[MGibster]

There are lots and lots of horror films where people survive and make a difference. Take the Conjuring films for instance. One family and a couple of investigators vs one foul spirit. Not all D&D needs to be world changing. The Tiers of play are a relatively new development and most gaming takes place Tier 1 and 2 anyway. It’s possible to extend the local heroics to include tier 2 as well.

Once piece of advice given in one of the many editions of Call of Cthulhu is for Keepers to make sure they give players a reason why people are worth saving. Have the players run into people who are actually helpful and friendly. Maybe the Rhode Island State Trooper who responds to reports of a burglary in progress ends up helping the PCs, perhaps a bystander comes to the aid of an injured Investigator who was pinned beneath an automobile carelessly tossed aside by an abomination of some sort, or maybe later on someone the Investigators helped comes along to thank them for their help.

 

[Remathilis]

This is a hell of a point.

Does “horror in d&d” require the players to (at times and to varied degrees) feel scared?

OR

Are the dark fantasy trappings and ambiance enough to satisfy the horror genre?

And? Or? Both? I’m certainly curious to see some opinions.

To expand on my thought

Horror demands a certain level of vulnerability; physical, mental, emotional, etc. that the monster can exploit. Truly good horror allows the hero to overcome their weakness and thereby win through determination and sacrifice. It is literally winning the staring contest with the Abyss.

D&D PCs however, have fewer vulnerabilities in the traditional sense. AC and HP shield them somewhat physically, and mental and emotional elements are really determined by the player's RP and how comfortable they are with showing vulnerability. Add to the fact your typical PC is competent at combat, has access to magical effects like healing, divination, and teleportation, and then put it in the meta-context of a bunch of people sitting around a table eating snacks and rolling dice, good horror in D&D tends to work only in short bursts, not extended drags.

Dark fantasy is more just traditional fantasy with horror overlay. The heroes are powerful, maybe not as powerful as their enemies, but powerful enough to be a thorn in their side. The heroes do suffer setbacks, have tension and yes, even horrific moments, but its viewed from the lens of someone who has seen darkness and can face it.

Curse of Strahd is Dark Fantasy. Sure, Strahd is way more powerful than the PCs for most of the game and there are clearly elements of tension and horror in it (The Abbot, Old Bonegrinder, even the priest's son) but at no point is the group really facing true horror; there is no "naked and afraid" moment and it is quite possible to survive that adventure without suffering any greater trauma than any PC gets adventuring. Your just doing in classic Gothic environs and against classic horror monsters. It borrows a lot from horror, but rarely is it actually horror itself.