Unsatisfactory BBEG Fight?

[R-man]

This actually happened to me when running my campaign back in second edition with return to the tomb of horrors. Acerack died on round 2 by some truly phenomenal rolls and excellent intuitive tactics on the part of the three players. I let him die, I didn't fudge it or alter it in any way.

My players still talk about this victory, because it was so out of the ordinary and because they knew then without any doubt that I don't pull punches when I DM, I go with what is rolled and if that means that the BBEG died really easily then so be it.

Consiquently my players treat even the most minor encounters in my campaigns with respect, they know that I will play the encounters to the appropriate ability of the enemies and if that results in a TPK then I will apologize and then watch as new characters are rolled up.

None of the players now get overly upset when a character dies, they understand that that is how it goes sometimes and they deal with it appropriately. Sometimes they get Raised and sometimes they just make a new character up whichever they prefer.

However most of the time the BBEG fights do go on for a long time.

One of the things to remember is that the DM's position requires a certain degree of trust from the players that you are trying to run an enjoyable game and not just screwing the players over for your own personal enjoyment. That means that if you want to run a particularly tough and high body count campaign that you have to be prepared to keep it honest and good without changing the encounter due to unforseen luck or tactics on the part of the players.

Not every group is the same however. Some groups would prefer the big epic battle and in fact would get upset with the DM if the battle ended so abruptly...unless there was a deeper reason. e.g. the BBEG wasn't the real BBEG but was just a front man, then the unfortunate quick battle can be used to further the storyline and add complexity and depth.

Remember if no one knows that you didn't plan it that way but you simply roll with it and deal with it people will assume that you are a much deeper thinker then you are and will spend hours trying to figure out what other nasty ideas you have up your sleave. When the players come up with a really good idea, don't be afraid to steal it and incorporate it!

 

[Numion]

Four words. Lord of the Rings.

The Hobbit is another one. The lizard was shot down by a friggin 'NPC'. In LotR one could argue though that the real enemy was the ring itself, and that most of the movies were about confronting that.

 

[wayne62682]

On the subject of BBEGs with a couple lesser goons, I disagree.. maybe it's my oldschool videogame-ness talking, but I like confrontations where it's your group against one super-powerful guy for the final battle, not against a guy with a horde with him.. you already were supposed to go through his horde to GET to him in the first place.

However, I stand by my earlier opinion that I would feel cheated if this happened. I like my barely-hanging-on, skin of your teeth, "we have to win or all is lost" epic battles for the "final boss".

 

[Prism]

I would love this kind of ending. In fact in our last campaign I successfully engineered this kind of ending. We payed for divinations and communes, and visited an oracle to determine that that BBEG was undead and then I got a druid to craft an undead slaying arrow to specifically kill the main NPC. Sure enough, we fought our way through an incredibly hard adventure with several party deaths, got to the last room and the archer shot the arrow and took out an advanced devourer. Fantastic. Had the DM felt the need to fudge to save and keep the devourer alive for an epic battle I would have felt cheated firstly by the fact that i had spent a good deal of effort in getting the information to help buy the arrow, and secondly by the fact that on a more general level it removes power from the players to affect their own characters actions and the outcomes of those actions.

I voted for satisfied since in this example i wanted the final battle to be a non event but was happy to invest in the luck of the save. I can think of plenty of other big battles that raged on for hours of game time and were just as fun but I would not want the DM to influence the outcome of the story by fudging the rolls.

A few people have talked about 'story'. I would say the DM's job is to provide the framework of the story up until that final battle but then just leave things to the dice. I don't see a battle as having a preset story - leave to to the dice to decide that

The problem with the DM fudging the rolls in certain combats is that it does become more obvious over time, and it kind of becomes a guessing game as to at which point in the fight are you safe to cast that disintigrate, or fire that arrow of slaying, because you know round 1-3 might be out of the question since the DM will probably fudge the roll. To me that kind of fight is just not enjoyable and very meta gamey

I have also throughly enjoyed encounters where my character has been turned to stone in round 1 of a fight before even closing, and equally passed a really hard save or die in the early rounds and gone on the smash the BBEG

If you're not going to going with the dice rolls the DM may as well introduce a rule that states no save or dies in the first 5 rounds of combat please.

 

[Gold Roger]

I think it would suck.

The BBEG confrontation should be barely managable for the party. I don't mind the party getting lucky, but only when it matters most (like when we've already got one dead member and the rest is in single digits and the paladin is about to smite evil for one last time).

Rolls like initiative shouldn't be botched in a critical fight. IMO the DM should fudge saves and initiative rolls in those cases.


QFT

Well, I'd be pissed if I realized this happening (and with a DM of this mentality I would sooner or later realize it). First the DM fails to create an story arc or even campaign ending encounter that holds up to one failed save DC or initiative roll, and then he fudges "to save his story". Now that would really hurt my trust in and esteem of that DM.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that though.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

I would think an arrow of undead slaying falls outside that rule

Yup. C&P from the SRD.

Slaying Arrow: This +1 arrow is keyed to a particular type or subtype of creature. If it strikes such a creature, the target must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or die (or, in the case of unliving targets, be destroyed) instantly. Note that even creatures normally exempt from Fortitude saves (undead and constructs) are subject to this attack. When keyed to a living creature, this is a death effect (and thus death ward protects a target). To determine the type or subtype of creature the arrow is keyed to, roll on the table below.

 

[Gold Roger]

Yup. C&P from the SRD.

Slaying Arrow: This +1 arrow is keyed to a particular type or subtype of creature. If it strikes such a creature, the target must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or die (or, in the case of unliving targets, be destroyed) instantly. Note that even creatures normally exempt from Fortitude saves (undead and constructs) are subject to this attack. When keyed to a living creature, this is a death effect (and thus death ward protects a target). To determine the type or subtype of creature the arrow is keyed to, roll on the table below.

Oh, I didn't know that. It isn't in my DMG. (Not sure if I like that change though)

 

[Numion]

I'll just comment a bit on the results. A lot of people are unsatisfied by the encounter. Might this be a reason for D&Ds success compared to more realistic and lethal games where a single blow can kill a baddie no matter how tough they are on a realistic basis?

I mean, WFRP, RQ, GURPS and RoleMaster all feature combat systems that make the series of events I described in the set-up, much more likely. In my experience as a DM I've had only once a fight against a BBEG ended on the surprise round (lucky dispel + disintegrate). Every other fight has been a drawn out battle that is barely won by the PCs (well .. they have been defeated a few times too). That's how D&D normally plays due to the hit point mechanic with no death-spirals.

However in the systems I listed quick deaths are much more common. They don't require extraordinary luck to pull off. Some systems even allow you to optimize characters for these critical deaths - like a GURPS "eye-stabber".

There's no contest when comparing to modern games. Headshots rule in most modern games.

 

[Numion]

Oh, I didn't know that. It isn't in my DMG. (Not sure if I like that change though)

It is in 3.0E DMG, I checked.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Actually had this happen once (not exactly, but close enough) in a 2EAD&D game. The BBEG mage put up a Wall of Force and boxed himself in the corner - the PC mage cast Lighting Bolt - inside the Wall of Force causing it to bounce around a few hundred times zorching the BBEG in one shot (along with his lt.) /One reason the spell description was changed for 3.X/

I stood there open mouthed, the party stopped dead for a second and then cheered. They were happy to get off easy, by GOOD PLAY & DUMB LUCK. After several confrontations with the BBEG Jr (his lt) this was a fine way to end it, with the shoe on the other foot. They still talk about to this day, so it CAN be memorable. As for my BBEGs, they no longer back themselves into a corner without there being a secret door to exit through or a Teleport spell readied.