Unsatisfactory BBEG Fight?

[wingsandsword]

I would feel that it is a battle well done, and expect the BBEG to have a clone stashed somewhere, or somesuch. I would also expect that this was a test by him, not his real self, a polymorphed underling. Any number of not-so-underhanded GM tricks.

Yeah, I woudn't think it would be unsatisfactory, a little short, but that's how the dice go sometimes.

If it felt like it was raw luck that let us pull it off, that he wasn't too weak or being played poorly, and he really was 5 to 8 CR's higher, but just rolled poorly, there would be more likely a feeling of satisfaction that we were lucky.

I would expect a dirty DM trick to get back though. It was just a clone, or he had a minion ressurrect him, or he was actually being manipulated by the "real" villain who the PC's would fight soon.

I've seen things like this, I saw an ongoing game end its big fight climactic because of disintegrate and a failed save on a 1, but then the end of the campaign was the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and when statting up Imix they didn't give him an immunity to that, so it seemed more like an issue with the adventure design.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Inspired by the NPC mechanics thread.

So, the set-up is this: the campaigns BBEG (Big Bad Evil Guy) has harrassed your PC group for the past ten levels or so (say, 5th-15th). He's sent minions after you, kidnapped your relatives, killed a few of your group and maybe even mocked you by monologuing from a safe position.

Now at 15th level you've breached his sanctuary and confronted him / her / it. After another brief gloating from the BBEG (the DM enforces a cinematic break, so nobody loses actions / buffs while the BBEG reveals his devilish scheme to return Electrum Pieces into circulation), the initiative is rolled. Tensions are high.

Something unexpected happens. BBEG botches his init. Then it might be your wizard who scores a lucky Disintegrate after another lucky (quickened) Dispel Magic. Or it might be the archer who rolls 20-20-crit and the DM had earlier insisted on using the instakill optional rule from DMG.

Good reason not to use that rule (the 20-20-20 rule)

Or the Barbarian lucks his way through the Mirror Images, Displacements and Anti-Life Shells and forces a massive damage save.

The point is, the BBEG is stomped on round 1 in a fight that's the pinnacle of your adventuring careers.

Would you feel satisfied?

No. In a vicious game with insta-death effects, he shouldn't confront the PCs on his own. He should have a "cabinet" of NPCs who travel with him.

EDIT: Hmm - to make it clearer, would you feel more satisfied after a drawn out 20-round with your side on single digits, I guess. Which the fight would've been if not for your incredible luck. Sorry for the unclear instructions.

EDIT 2: To make it clear, the BBEG loses on round 1 due to the PCs luck, not because the BBEG goofed up. The BBEG is fully prepared. Buffs up the wazoo, he knows the PCs favorite tactics and weaknesses, as much as the PCs haven't disguised them. His border conditions:

1) He would be around party level +5 -- +8 on the EL scale. If he's less than that, he's not really the BBEG. If he's more than that, he's in some other adventure.

2) He has to stoop down to actually confront the PCs. It happens now because the storyline is exhausted or the campaign is drawing to an end. This has happened due to the PCs determination and actions and has caused considerable hardship to the PCs already (kidnapped relatives, dead PCs mentioned in the text).

Ok... what do you mean by "stoop down"?

The chances of a villain, even higher level, of smashing the PCs on his own is very low. In real-life, group size matters. Therefore the main villain should not face the PCs on his own. Ever. Named henchmen with lots of barbarian levels but without the smarts or leadership ability to lead the villain group might face them on their own, however. (Same with the dragon the BBEG mind-controlled with the artifact that requires evil acts to use.) The barbarian and dragon are not the main villain, even if they happen to be higher level/CR than the main villain.

I'll give an example.

A while back I ran a Three Kingdoms campaign. The main villain was Dong Zhuo, a smart but exceeding evil warlord. He was 9th-level (the PCs ended at 8th-level).

Near the end they faced him, defeated his guards, but couldn't catch him.

On the last day they took down one of his named subgenerals (again, a group battle, again a 9th-level named villain, but he wasn't smart enough to be the leader) and shortly afterwards fought his champion (who was not that smart [Int 8] and fought the group by himself). The champion was 13th-level and had very high Defense. So he lost. That wasn't too surprising.

Designing BBEGs can be a pain. You can't design a BBEG... you actually need to design a BBEG, where "G" stands for "Group". That's about four times as much work (assuming you're using four villains).

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I would feel disappointed unless the BBEG's evil plan takes heroic action to defeat after the villian's death. Just because the BBEG is dead doesn't mean the tarrasque he woke and legions of undead will up and surrender before destroying their home city.

 

[Goken100]

everyone missing the point

Such a thing would be unsatisfying to many because there's no depth. In any video game or movie, climatic confrontations have some severe plot turns as well. Aragorn is kinged, Luke becomes a jedi, that sort of thing. If its just "he was bad... now he's dead", well ya a nice fight might have covered up a shallow campaign. But with some depth, the confrontation will be satisfying no matter what.

That being said, it is nice to be able to use up a few charges of that wand of boss-blasting that's been burning a hole in your pocket.

 

[Numion]

No. In a vicious game with insta-death effects, he shouldn't confront the PCs on his own. He should have a "cabinet" of NPCs who travel with him.

The BBEG already was an overkill encounter (+5 -- +8 ELs). It would've been very difficult and unlikely to win without the lucky shot. Adding his cabinet into the mix .. EL +7 -- +10? How?

Ok... what do you mean by "stoop down"?

Some of the suggestions seemed like the confrontation where the BBEG dies can't be the real deal. The BBEG should've had a contingency where this is not really the confrontation because the BBEG is too smart to actually be defeatable in an encounter, etc .. But this is the end of the storyline / campaign, so he has to 'be there' in somewhat defeatable form.

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On the last day they took down one of his named subgenerals (again, a group battle, again a 9th-level named villain, but he wasn't smart enough to be the leader) and shortly afterwards fought his champion (who was not that smart [Int 8] and fought the group by himself). The champion was 13th-level and had very high Defense. So he lost. That wasn't too surprising.

Designing BBEGs can be a pain. You can't design a BBEG... you actually need to design a BBEG, where "G" stands for "Group". That's about four times as much work (assuming you're using four villains).

I don't believe it. I've had excellent and longish BBEG fights with a single opponent (Imix in RttToEE, Ashardalon in Bastion of Broken Souls, Iglathnagor the white dragon in my own adventure, Rathnar the Troll-Sorcerer in my own, etc..).

And the set-up is what it is - the BBEGs minions are already dead, or whatnot, and the minions temp agency was out of fresh meat in such short order.

 

[Numion]

Such a thing would be unsatisfying to many because there's no depth.

Heh, true. Maybe there is a plot turn involved. The BBEGs scheme of reintroducing electrum pieces was actually a good thing - it was going save the nation from economic disaster. Or that one of the PCs finds out that he has a sizeable Electrum piece inheritance coming to him from his 1st Edition uncle - now worthless since they've defeated the BBEGs scheme

But really, besides the point.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Therefore the main villain should not face the PCs on his own. Ever.

I strongly disagree. Never being able to fight the main villain would make for a suck-ass story. I can't recall a novel or even movie where the BBEG was never confronted, if not beaten. There's a reason for that. It would suck for the actors (players) never to confront him.

Um, undead are only affected by fort save effects that affect objects...

The slaying arrow says, "Note that even creatures normally exempt from Fortitude saves (undead and constructs) are subject to this attack."

 

[FrostedMini1337]

I strongly disagree. Never being able to fight the main villain would make for a suck-ass story. I can't recall a novel or even movie where the BBEG was never confronted, if not beaten. There's a reason for that. It would suck for the actors (players) never to confront him.

I think the "on his own" part was the part to emphasize.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think the "on his own" part was the part to emphasize.

Ah. You're probably right. Take my previous post with a large grain of salt, please.

 

[drothgery]

Him, in my current campaign, it seemed like we spent something like from 5th-9th level being harassed by and/or harassing a mind flayer sorcerer. We kept finding him, sabatoging his plans, and when we finally caught up with him, he fought us for a little bit and then got away (because his SR was too good for my wizard or the cleric to get through without great rolls and action points, and if the barbarian didn't stay within a protection from evil or something like it, she was going to fail a will save and get mind-controlled). So over the course of adventures we start aiming at the idea of taking this guy down. My wizard takes Spell Penetration and acquires a PrC that gives him a better chance of beating SR, and such. And when we finally had some cash before our last run at the guy, we bought a couple of bolts of aberration slaying (the DM agreed that if arrows existed, bolts should, even if we had to commission them). And when we tracked him down in his extraplanar stronghold, he fired one of them, and it worked.

Of course, the next BBEG (at level 12) took down my wizard in the end battle and the rogue early in the adventure...