Upgrading Monsters to Elite - Can Anyone Help?

[orcmonk220]

Hey guys,

So I've been working on updating the Urban Decay adventure (Dungeon 138) for my fourth edition group. I've got it pretty much all sorted with the exception of the final battle. I wanted to make the Wererat villain at the end into an Elite Wererat. I've followed the step-by-step guide in the DMG (I only have the original core books), but the monster just seems like it's got HP and nothing else. So far, I have the following creature:


Vernon Atcher, Wererat. Level 3 Elite Skirmisher (XP 300).
Medium natural humanoid (shapechanger).

Initiative +7. Senses Perception +7; low-light vision.
HP 128; bloodied 64.
Regeneration 5 (if the wererat takes damage from a silver weapon, its regeneration doesn‘t function on its next turn).
AC 19; Fortitude 17, Reflex 18, Will 13.
Saving Throw +2.
Immune filth fever (see below).
Speed 6, climb 4 (not in human form).
Action Points 1.

Short Sword and Bite (standard, at-will) - Weapon, Disease.
+8 vs. AC; 1d6 + 4 damage, and +8 vs. AC; 1d4 + 2 damage, and the target takes ongoing 2 damage (save ends) and contracts filth fever (see below).

Short Sword (standard, at-will) - Weapon.
+8 vs. AC; 1d6 + 4 damage.

Bite (standard, at-will) - Disease.
+8 vs. AC; 1d4 + 2 damage, and the target takes ongoing 2 damage (save ends) and contracts filth fever (see below).

Change Shape (minor, at-will) - Polymorph.
A wererat can alter its physical form to appear as a dire rat or a unique human. It looses its bite attack in human form.

Combat Advantage.
The wererat deals an extra 1d6 damage on melee attacks against any target it has combat advantage against.

Alignment Evil. Languages Common.
Skills Bluff +6, Stealth +10, Streetwise +6, Thievery +10.

Str 10 (+1), Dex 18 (+5), Wis 12 (+2).
Con 16 (+4), Int 10 (+1), Cha 11 (+1).

Equipment cloak, short sword.


I haven't worked out equipment yet, but I was wondering if I'd done this right? According to the rules in the DMG, what I've done is:

> HP from 48 -> 128 (double 48 and double constitution score).
> AC, Fortitude and Reflex increased by 2.
> Saving Throws +2 bonus.
> Granted 1 Action Point.
> Granted him the ability to use short sword and bite at the same time without penalty.

Can anybody point me in the direction of a walkthrough, or some way to better update monsters to elite, or tell me what the devil went wrong?

Cheers
Chris.


EDIT: New stat block in a later post.

 

[Destil]

That's pretty much all your need (or, if you want, make the bite a minor action, Same deal) to make this guy a respectable elite.

 

[orcmonk220]

Oh, excellent. He didn't look that different to a standard Wererat, but I'll likely grant him a magic sword and possibly some armour (I'll use the Rogue's set of proficiencies). The bite being a minor action sounds like a great plan too, thanks for that.

 

[Rune]

Making the bite a minor action is good, because it gives the elite the ability to attack two foes in a single turn without spending an action point. Also, consider that the Sword and Bite standard action attack will be giving the elite two bite attacks per turn (again, without the action point).

Not that there's anything wrong with that--the bite isn't very powerful (and ongoing damage of the same type doesn't stack), but filth fever is nasty-fun. Just remember that pretty much the entire party is likely to contract it by the end of the fight.

Also, as written, the combat advantage bonus to damage applies to every relevant attack. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, as these attacks are kind of low-damage, anyway, but, again, remember that the minor-action bite would be an additional potential +1d6 per turn in addition to the bite damage (and another potential +1d6 + Sword and Bite damage with use of the action point).

If you want to avoid this, you could make the combat advantage attack apply once per turn, but then it begins to look a little weak. Maybe +1d8 or +1d10?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The damage is looking pretty low on this guy. Have you seen the new damage expressions?

(Since you're using the old monster format, I assume not. The new damage for a 3rd-level monster is 1d6+7 or 2d6+3.)

I think you just flat-out double the hit points without doing any other math, so hp would just be 96.

 

[Nullzone]

I think you just flat-out double the hit points without doing any other math, so hp would just be 96.

That's the textbook way to do it, but it's really boring.

He needs a bloodied trigger, either that makes him do something badass, or that lets him get out of dodge and regroup.

I'm loopy from a new years all nighter but I'll have a look at this after a nap and see what I can come up with.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There are a lot of choices here. 1st thing I would look at is DMG2 style adjustments. The only thing really relevant there is that elites no longer get any defense bonuses. This guys defenses aren't really out of line, but AC17 would speed things up a bit, especially if you stick with the 128 HP.

I think the basic attack routine is OK, assuming the monster will have a decent way of getting CA reasonably often, which is kind of dependent on the scenario. If he gets pinned down he's probably going to just be stuck doing some pretty anemic damage is all. So I would consider a couple possibilities. You could give him an anti-lockdown kind of ability. At this level it would probably really just be a mobility mechanic. It could be a minor action shift, or even an immediate reaction shift. That gets him out of being surrounded and lets him set up CA with his allies for good damage output. Something like:

Clever Tactics (Minor Action 1/turn * at-will) Vernon Atcher shifts one square

Clever Tactics (Immediate Reaction * at-will) Trigger: An enemy flanks Vernon Atcher. Vernon Atcher makes a Shortsword attack against the moving enemy and shifts one square.

I think it would be a good idea to give him some sort of on bloodied trigger too. Without going to the trouble of designing another power the easiest way would be to let him take an attack routine as soon as he gets bloodied as a free action. A better way might be to give him some kind of encounter power and have that recharge when he gets bloodied. An encounter power could be anything. Maybe something like a "leap and attack" routine would be nice.

Leaping Attack (Standard * encounter) Vernon Atcher shifts up to 8 squares and makes 2 shortsword attacks against enemies he shifts past.

This also serves as another "get out of there" option to avoid being pinned down. I think the result is you end up with a pretty mobile guy that can run in, do some damage, and then jump away with an AP, or go in, fight for a round, jump away, hide, attack again from surprise, etc.

 

[Derulbaskul]

Short Sword (standard, at-will) - Weapon.
+8 vs. AC; 1d6 + 4 damage.

Average damage should be 11 so maybe go with 2d6+4.

You may also want to include an encounter power that allows the wererat to shift its speed and make up to three attacks at any point to really show off his skirmisher-ness. (And, if he was a solo, I would be making the power a recharge 456).

Bite (standard, at-will) - Disease.
+8 vs. AC; 1d4 + 2 damage, and the target takes ongoing 2 damage (save ends) and contracts filth fever (see below).

I would definitely make this a minor action and change the damage to 2d4+3 (giving an average of 9, or 25% below 11). Alternatively, keep it as a standard action and add the double attack standard back in (but include a free shift as part of the double attack).

You might want to also consider calling it DARTING BITE and allow the wererat to shift 1 square. Right now the stat block doesn't feel skirmisher-y.

Change Shape (minor, at-will) - Polymorph.
A wererat can alter its physical form to appear as a dire rat or a unique human. It looses its bite attack in human form.

Better to give it a third form, human-rat hybrid, so it can use the shortsword and bite attacks together ("lose" not "loose").

I haven't worked out equipment yet, but I was wondering if I'd done this right?

Don't worry about magical equipment unless it's part of the treasure parcel you have planned for the encounter.

According to the rules in the DMG, what I've done is:

> HP from 48 -> 128 (double 48 and double constitution score).
> AC, Fortitude and Reflex increased by 2.
> Saving Throws +2 bonus.
> Granted 1 Action Point.
> Granted him the ability to use short sword and bite at the same time without penalty.

I would ditch the increases to defences. Later elites and solos don't have these increases largely because they create a heavy grind factor when coupled with the increase in hit points.

I would also give him some sort of free shift triggered by being bloodied that lets him shift at least half his speed, if not more. A skirmisher should be mobile.

 

[orcmonk220]

Wow, so many awesome replies. Cheers guys I probably should have mentioned that it's a party of 3 - a sword-and-shield fighter with a life-drinking axe for emergencies, a sun-cleric who has a focus on healing, and a half-elf warlock with a love of damage.

WARNING: Long post ahoy!

Not that there's anything wrong with that--the bite isn't very powerful (and ongoing damage of the same type doesn't stack), but filth fever is nasty-fun. Just remember that pretty much the entire party is likely to contract it by the end of the fight.

I did think this 2 filth fevers per turn might be overpowered, but my party seems to enjoy thinks that take them by surprise, and it's not the most deadly of diseases. Sure, it's a problem, but the cleric in the party is very devoted to healing with a high Heal modifier, so he should be able to clean up targets pretty fast.

If you want to avoid this, you could make the combat advantage attack apply once per turn, but then it begins to look a little weak. Maybe +1d8 or +1d10?

I think I will make combat advantage 1 per turn, probably as a +1d8. A high sneak attack would really give the feeling of being a rogue-type enemy, but there's only 3 members in the party, so I don't want it too high.

The damage is looking pretty low on this guy. Have you seen the new damage expressions?

(Since you're using the old monster format, I assume not. The new damage for a 3rd-level monster is 1d6+7 or 2d6+3.)

Hadn't seen the new damage expressions. Are they in DMG2?

I think you just flat-out double the hit points without doing any other math, so hp would just be 96.

I thought that pushing HP into triple digits was a little overkill. I might well make it 96, especially if I put in the encounter ability I'm thinking (see below).

He needs a bloodied trigger, either that makes him do something badass, or that lets him get out of dodge and regroup.

For a bloodied trigger, I'm thinking something along the lines of this:

Call of the Rat (free, when first bloodied; encounter).
Vernon lets out a howl, summoning 2 dire rats from the rubbish in the chamber.

I don't know if 2 Dire Rats would be over/underpowered for a party of 3, so maybe half-a-dozen minion rats.

There are a lot of choices here. 1st thing I would look at is DMG2 style adjustments. The only thing really relevant there is that elites no longer get any defense bonuses. This guys defenses aren't really out of line, but AC17 would speed things up a bit, especially if you stick with the 128 HP.

I'm going to drop defensives back to normal, and will likely make him 96 HP. I want him to be tough, but I'm going to have him moving a lot, so will likely drop the HP down to force him to move around.

You could give him an anti-lockdown kind of ability. At this level it would probably really just be a mobility mechanic. It could be a minor action shift, or even an immediate reaction shift. That gets him out of being surrounded and lets him set up CA with his allies for good damage output. Something like:

Clever Tactics (Minor Action 1/turn * at-will) Vernon Atcher shifts one square

Clever Tactics (Immediate Reaction * at-will) Trigger: An enemy flanks Vernon Atcher. Vernon Atcher makes a Shortsword attack against the moving enemy and shifts one square.

I like the idea of the first option, as when he locks down on a character he could use him bite, and when he has to flee he could move quicker - really gives him a lot of actions.

Leaping Attack (Standard * encounter) Vernon Atcher shifts up to 8 squares and makes 2 shortsword attacks against enemies he shifts past.

I like the idea of a leaping attack. for this encounter, I want him in a maze-like room that's filled with piles of rubbish. Due to the size of the party, and how the room would be laid out, I'd think about making this a 6-square shift with 1 attack (kind of like the old moving attack feats in 3.5), but he'd use it to dart from one rubbish pile to another.

Would having it recharge on a 5 or 6 be overpowered or not?

Average damage should be 11 so maybe go with 2d6+4.

Just out of interest, why does a weapon's damage change with monster level. Is it just a general way to make the monster more powerful? I can understand on natural attacks, just not weapons.

Merely curious

You may also want to include an encounter power that allows the wererat to shift its speed and make up to three attacks at any point to really show off his skirmisher-ness. (And, if he was a solo, I would be making the power a recharge 456).

That's kind of covered above Again, do you reckon it recharging for an elite is too powerful? Maybe just on a 6?

You might want to also consider calling it DARTING BITE and allow the wererat to shift 1 square. Right now the stat block doesn't feel skirmisher-y.

Great idea, definately including this. Should I still keep it minor, or make it standard, if he's shifting as well?

Better to give it a third form, human-rat hybrid, so it can use the shortsword and bite attacks together ("lose" not "loose").

Ah, my bad. The entire block was hybrid. Probably should have written that on there...

I would also give him some sort of free shift triggered by being bloodied that lets him shift at least half his speed, if not more. A skirmisher should be mobile.

Do you reckon this would be better, or the summon rats type move above? This would make Vernon more skirmisher-y, but the summon rats move would mean for combat advantage, allowing the tension to be ramped up for the second part of the fight.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Hadn't seen the new damage expressions. Are they in DMG2?

Yes. The MM3, Monster Vault, and Dark Sun Creature Catalog all use the new values.

Call of the Rat (free, when first bloodied; encounter).
Vernon lets out a howl, summoning 2 dire rats from the rubbish in the chamber.

Are dire rats minions? I thought monsters could only summon minions. You might be better off just adding them into the encounter (as the fight starts to swing to the PCs' side, of course).

And good point about more minions meaning more flanking opportunities.

I don't know if 2 Dire Rats would be over/underpowered for a party of 3, so maybe half-a-dozen minion rats.

Or that, in which case they're not worth XP.

I like the idea of a leaping attack. for this encounter, I want him in a maze-like room that's filled with piles of rubbish. Due to the size of the party, and how the room would be laid out, I'd think about making this a 6-square shift with 1 attack (kind of like the old moving attack feats in 3.5), but he'd use it to dart from one rubbish pile to another.

Would having it recharge on a 5 or 6 be overpowered or not?

That would be fine. This is an elite after all, and skirmishers should be moving all the time.

Just out of interest, why does a weapon's damage change with monster level. Is it just a general way to make the monster more powerful? I can understand on natural attacks, just not weapons.

PCs get a bunch of non-weapon bonuses added to weapon attacks: stats (which monsters no longer add), magic bonuses (NPCs rarely have these), feats (no one but PCs get feats, etc). Generally I try to keep the damage dice reflecting the weapon in question: so a short sword attack might deal 3d6+5 damage at level 7, for instance. You could just add generic damage bonuses instead though, just so long as the average damage follows the guidelines.