Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[S'mon]

CR is a measure of power of a creature again four PCs, however, so the "typical NPCs" are a moot point as they don't matter because they have no place in the discussion. We're talking about PCs, not NPCs. I don't know any PC fighter who won't have either a +4 weapon or Sure Striking by Level 11.

I imagine 2.5 (rounding up) would be more accurate for PCs.

Whether PC fighters have +4 weapons of sure striking at 11th level depends on whether you're running a 'little shop of infinite magic items' game or not - PCs in my game have ranged up to 9th level and never had anything better than +2. There's not much in the MM that has DR over +3 anyway, and not that many over +2. It's perfectly possible to run a viable game without letting the PCs buy whatever MI they happen to want. I don't find it credible that a town with no wizard over 8th level is going to be producing +4 sure strike weapons on demand - or +3 weapons, for that matter.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Simon!

Whether PC fighters have +4 weapons of sure striking at 11th level depends on whether you're running a 'little shop of infinite magic items' game or not - PCs in my game have ranged up to 9th level and never had anything better than +2. There's not much in the MM that has DR over +3 anyway, and not that many over +2. It's perfectly possible to run a viable game without letting the PCs buy whatever MI they happen to want. I don't find it credible that a town with no wizard over 8th level is going to be producing +4 sure strike weapons on demand - or +3 weapons, for that matter.

Yes, but your game is slightly magic light; whereas Anubis game is slightly magic heavy. My task is to find the common ground which seems to be slightly less than +1 enhancement bonus/3 Levels.

This parallels the fact that spellcasters need to be 12th-level to create +4 weapons and gives the spell Greater Magic Weapon some meaning and purpose (if everyone is running around with +4 weaponry at 11th-level; that spell becomes pointless).

So you would have to say the average lies somewhere within +1/3 Levels and +1/4 Levels. Perhaps +1/3.5:

eg.
+1 at about 4th-level
+2 at about 7th-level
+3 at about 10th-level
+4 at about 14th-level
+5 at about 18th-level

Incidently looking through the Epic NPC list at the back of the ELH, very few of them have Epic Magic items.

In the standard classes I only saw one epic item (The Paladins +6 Shield); among the personalities Shuruppak's sword is +12 (total bonuses); the Cat Lord has a +8 rapier; Eclavdra has a +7 morningstar.

What we can draw from this is that seemingly Epic items are a bit thin on the ground.

I would suggest that the 'jump' to +6 take place at around 35th. Although characters could of course create such items themselves before that; this is a useful chart for NPCs.

eg.
+6 at 35th-level
+7 at 39th-level
+8 at 42nd-level
+9 at 46th-level
+10 at 50th-level
etc.
NB. Remember these are just rough guidelines.

Deities are handled somewhat differently in the IH though.

I also recently came up with a new way to instigate Esoteric Divine Powers that means you don't necessarily have to spend WP to obtain them - its a simpler and more effective mechanism.

 

[Anubis]

I thought the target quasi-deity (we were discussing) was an NPC.

Remember, at its core, CR is the measure of power of an NPC against PCs.

We're talking about an NPC deity going up against four PCs, because that is the only way to determine CR.

Do you honestly think that a party of Level 11 characters won't decimate a Level 1 character with DvR 0?

Forget about PCs having +4 weapons for now and think only of the Sure Striking ability. Most fighters will get a weapon with Sure Striking. This would be a +2 weapon.

Heck, you could even forget about that. A Level 11 party will have access to Antimagic Field which, when cast, completely negates the DR of the deity. What's that foolish deity gonna do then? Beg for his life or just die? He has no SDAs to fall back on, and if he or she goes after Fighter, he or she is as good as dead. One hit is all it takes.

This stuff about knowledge of the deity's status is a moot point. After the first hit does nothing, they'll know that they need a lot more power in the weapons to kill the deity in question. The deity, on the other hand, will NOT have enough power to take the party out. At best, the deity will retreat, which still equals a win for the party in question.

Remember, you've been basing your arguments on the NPC stats in the book for both sides. To determine the actual numbers, you must match an NPC deity against a party of four balanced PCs, because that is how ECL and CR are determined.

I have shown time and again that a Level 11 party would easily defeat a Level 1 character with DvR 0. Add levels to both sides, and the balance remains pretty much the same. At Level 2, the deity still would be unable to defeat the now Level 12 party. By the time the deity is Level 4, nothing else matters, because the party will, even by your standards, now have +4 weapons. This shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that DvR 0 should be ECL +10.

I have give nevery argument I can think of to show you that DvR 0 is ECL +10. I believe my arguments are all valid and reasonable and easily seen in any campaign.

[Note: I'm using your rules for ECL/CR from Asgard 6 here.]

As for DvR 1 being ECL +20, my main premise is that DvR 1 is a 100% increase in power over DvR 0. (Using a Level 1 character here doesn't work.) This is more of a theory than anything else, becayse at ECL +20, it's impossible to calculate specifics. I do believe it to be accurate, though, because by doing so, a Level 21 deity would be ECL 41 (CR 30) and thus a decent challenge for four Level 40-43 character (Party CR 30). By your assumption, the party members would all need Level 44-47 to challenge the Level 21 deity with DvR 1, and that is a bit harsh, I believe. Not much of a difference, but enough to have an effect.

Anyway, I have made my case. I am saying all of this with due respect to you, of course. I hope you take my words to heart and consider what I've said. Not only does it make sense, it also actually makes the calculations of ECL and CR easier in the long run. It's a win-win situtation!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Remember, at its core, CR is the measure of power of an NPC against PCs.

I don't agree thats the best way to do it though.

We're talking about an NPC deity going up against four PCs, because that is the only way to determine CR.

The flipside of that is however that the +14 ECL is given to PCs as well. Something that I think returns us to the Monte Cook article we previously discussed.

Do you honestly think that a party of Level 11 characters won't decimate a Level 1 character with DvR 0?

Remember that the 1st-level Quasi-deity will have weapons equivalent to a 15th-level NPC.

Such a fight is approximately a 50/50 chance of going either way as I see it.

Forget about PCs having +4 weapons for now and think only of the Sure Striking ability. Most fighters will get a weapon with Sure Striking. This would be a +2 weapon.

I don't buy this 'most fighters will have weapons with the sure striking ability' opinion.

If you are running/playing an overtly magical campaign then the PCs are obviously going to be 'pound for pound' more powerful. Thus CR will be duly affected.

Heck, you could even forget about that. A Level 11 party will have access to Antimagic Field which, when cast, completely negates the DR of the deity. What's that foolish deity gonna do then? Beg for his life or just die? He has no SDAs to fall back on, and if he or she goes after Fighter, he or she is as good as dead. One hit is all it takes.

Assumes the 'foolish deity' gets caught in one in the first place.

This stuff about knowledge of the deity's status is a moot point. After the first hit does nothing, they'll know that they need a lot more power in the weapons to kill the deity in question.

Not at all.

Which is easier: fighting a Red Dragon on a whim or fighting a red dragon with prior knowledge of the opponent; everyone armed with dragon bane weaponry and everyone protected versus fire?

Information affects CR.

The deity, on the other hand, will NOT have enough power to take the party out. At best, the deity will retreat, which still equals a win for the party in question.

With the items of a 15th-level NPC I don't see why it wouldn't have a fighting chance if played intelligently; by 'fighting chance' I don't necessarily mean standing toe to toe with the party.

Remember, you've been basing your arguments on the NPC stats in the book for both sides. To determine the actual numbers, you must match an NPC deity against a party of four balanced PCs, because that is how ECL and CR are determined.

I used the NPC examples to represent a lower limit. Stats wise PCs will be similar, so the only difference will be the magic items.

I already mentioned that NPCs are treated as equal to PCs in that respect which always gives PCs the edge.

A 20th-level NPC is rated equal to a 20th-level PC in terms of CR.

I have shown time and again that a Level 11 party would easily defeat a Level 1 character with DvR 0.

You have shown that they could; but not necessarily that they would.

Add levels to both sides, and the balance remains pretty much the same. At Level 2, the deity still would be unable to defeat the now Level 12 party. By the time the deity is Level 4, nothing else matters, because the party will, even by your standards, now have +4 weapons. This shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that DvR 0 should be ECL +10.

The measure of this power is not based on Damage Reduction alone (in fact thats only a very small fraction of the power) - but on all the deities gained powers and abilities.

Again this relates to Monte Cooks article; wherein many of the abilities will be more useful to PCs than NPCs.

I have given every argument I can think of to show you that DvR 0 is ECL +10. I believe my arguments are all valid and reasonable and easily seen in any campaign.

They are indeed valid and reasonable, but not conclusive.

[Note: I'm using your rules for ECL/CR from Asgard 6 here.]

That article didn't properly take into account the increase in ability scores (as I now rate them).

As for DvR 1 being ECL +20, my main premise is that DvR 1 is a 100% increase in power over DvR 0. (Using a Level 1 character here doesn't work.) This is more of a theory than anything else, becayse at ECL +20, it's impossible to calculate specifics. I do believe it to be accurate, though, because by doing so, a Level 21 deity would be ECL 41 (CR 30) and thus a decent challenge for four Level 40-43 character (Party CR 30). By your assumption, the party members would all need Level 44-47 to challenge the Level 21 deity with DvR 1, and that is a bit harsh, I believe. Not much of a difference, but enough to have an effect.

Again I rated DR1 in terms of what it adds to a character.

Remember again that the addition ECL affects NPC wealth/items.

A level 21 DR1 is effectively ECL 45/CR 31 (wealth as per a 45th-level NPC). This is the equivalent (50/50) to x4 34th-level characters.

Anyway, I have made my case. I am saying all of this with due respect to you, of course.

Hey! We are all friends here mate! I have nothing but respect for your opinion. You know that!

I hope you take my words to heart and consider what I've said.

I have considered them. But other than the difference between rating these powers as they apply to PCs and NPCs (something I may attend to) I don't see a problem.

Not only does it make sense, it also actually makes the calculations of ECL and CR easier in the long run. It's a win-win situtation!

I think any such difference will be negligable. But if you wish to modify the CRs when you see the final work then fair enough.

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

Hi Upper Krust! Concerning The ELH, don`t you think that it is ridiculous tha the wealth of 30th level NPC is so much lower than of a PC of same level? Hey, something as an average 30th level Wizard or Fighter shouldn`t even exist! There might even not be any beings of such level on many worlds!

 

[Anubis]

A level 21 DR1 is effectively ECL 45/CR 31 (wealth as per a 45th-level NPC). This is the equivalent (50/50) to x4 34th-level characters.

You mean four Level 44 characters, right? By your own system, four Level 34 has a party CR of 27. It would take four Level 44-47 characters to be party CR 31, and thus a challenge for CR 31.

Not to nitpick or anything . . .

Getting back to the subject, I think the best idea is to playtest it. Dont' warn players ahead of time, just throw the Level 1 DvR 0 NPC against a party of Level 11 characters. I think they will win.

Same with the ECL +20 for DvR 1.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Upper Krust!

Hi Melkor mate!

Concerning The ELH, don`t you think that it is ridiculous tha the wealth of 30th level NPC is so much lower than of a PC of same level?

It fulfills two criteria: firstly it gives PCs a slight edge in confrontations; secondly it stops PCs gaining too much wealth/items from defeated NPCs.

Hey, something as an average 30th level Wizard or Fighter shouldn`t even exist! There might even not be any beings of such level on many worlds!

On a world scale I agree. However on a multiversal (and beyond) scale its appropriate.

Incidently, there should be a 30th-level character for every 536,870,912 people. So Earth should have about 11 30th-level characters.

40th-level character - Every 549 billion
50th-level character - Every 562 trillion
60th-level character - Every 576 quintillion
etc.

This demographic does not apply to deities since they are effectively immortal.

 

[S'mon]

Hi Simon!


Yes, but your game is slightly magic light; whereas Anubis game is slightly magic heavy. My task is to find the common ground which seems to be slightly less than +1 enhancement bonus/3 Levels.

This parallels the fact that spellcasters need to be 12th-level to create +4 weapons and gives the spell Greater Magic Weapon some meaning and purpose (if everyone is running around with +4 weaponry at 11th-level; that spell becomes pointless).

So you would have to say the average lies somewhere within +1/3 Levels and +1/4 Levels. Perhaps +1/3.5:

eg.
+1 at about 4th-level
+2 at about 7th-level
+3 at about 10th-level
+4 at about 14th-level
+5 at about 18th-level

What we can draw from this is that seemingly Epic items are a bit thin on the ground.

I agree about Greater Magic Weapon, but rem it has a very long duration. I think your above suggestion therefore is a bit magic-light for a DMG-standard game. As far as PCs in a 'standard' campaign goes, I suggest that weapons should probably be about +1 per 3 levels, rounded down, and including special powers - so eg a +3 Vorpal (effective +5 to +s) sword is +8. For NPCs it seems to be about +1/5 levels, though this varies by class, +1/4 levels would also work.

However the 30%/level wealth increase allows for PCs having +10-effect weapons at 20th level. I think GMW in most campaigns is used to boost the +1-Vorpal (or whatever) to +5 (or whatever), ie making a +6-effect weapon into effectively a +10-effect (or better) weapon.

The big issue I've seen is that in my game, MI are taken from NPCs, who usually have at best 'standard' NPC wealth, or crafted by _specific_ wizards (eg Dulleaberg's top magic weapons-crafter is 8th level, so he can make weapons up to +2), and in neither case does this produce the ultra-powerful weapons that you get if you allow PCs to freely buy whatever they want with their accumulated wealth.

 

[S'mon]

BTW if this 'sure striking' ability is such a dead-cert purchase for any PC, I suspect it's broken...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

You mean four Level 44 characters, right? By your own system, four Level 34 has a party CR of 27. It would take four Level 44-47 characters to be party CR 31, and thus a challenge for CR 31.

Not to nitpick or anything . . .

Remember I said a 50/50 confrontation. An equal CR (for the parties average) means the Players should defeat the opponent using roughly 25% of their resources.

For a party of 4 PCs a CR+4 is a 50/50 encounter.

Getting back to the subject, I think the best idea is to playtest it. Dont' warn players ahead of time, just throw the Level 1 DvR 0 NPC against a party of Level 11 characters. I think they will win.

Same with the ECL +20 for DvR 1.

Perhaps we should conduct such an experiment here, what do you think?