Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Blacksad]

drow SR?

Hi U_K!

Every rule in the IH is there because its the right rule (as I see it). If I find a superior rule then I'll use it. If someone shows me a fault - I'll fix it. This is all about creating the best tools for the job.

If I don't give DMs the best advice I can, then I am just wasting my time. These are not simply wild notions conjured up out of the blue. There is reason and logic behind these decisions.

and the drow SR?

a level 40 (ECL 42?) drow has SR 51 while a monster with a similar ECL should have a SR 43

I know, you said that SR has less and less importance at high-level, but it still bother me, and lead me to the thought that the IH rule didn't allowed some classic character concept like the invoker (big bad fireballs deal with SR), a bit like the ELH do not allow illusionist to be efficient at high-level (spot & listen skills), and that mage were all of the alteration/conjuration kind.

and I would like to know how SR becomes less and less meaningful, OK I'll try stop pestering you with SR

 

[Anubis]

I have to admit that (level^2)*10000 has a nice look about it.

But does the arithmetic part really have to involve such ugly numbers?

The numbers aren't really that ugly. I got it from a simple formula. For instance, let's say you're going from Level 40 to Level 41. Take the Level 40 wealth (13,600,000) and multiply it by 1/(Level+1), which in this case is 1/41. You'll get the very ugly number to which you refer, 331,707, although there is a small fraction of course. Every level thereafter, use the same formula, and you'll quickly see that you get the same number at every level! Quite simple. That's what makes it work, in fact.

The thing I do not like about this system is that you would gain the same amount of money by going from level 40 to level 41 than you would by going from level 200 to 201! It means you should never be able to find a +6 longsword since it costs 720000 gp.

Actually, you would indeed be able to find a longsword +6. In fact, for the most part, there are no true limits on what you can find or make. The 331,707 per level is a gain. This includes all trading in of items for better items, spending money on one-use items, and all other such things that you use. It's basically an overall average after everything is taken into account.

On a side note, you have a good point nonetheless, in that VERY expensive items, such as a longsword +20, would never be found. Under UK's system, however, you may never GET a longsword +20 unless a god creates it for you as an artifact, so really the two systems aren't that much different. I have considered a purely square formula, but am still looking into it.

...and been answered.

You may have answered those things, but you certainly haven't been able to show that your system doesn't completely break down eventually, whereas several people have shown that it WOULD.

I don't think you can forget about realism. We relate to fantasy through realistic elements.

There are some things best left unexplained. If everything was dealt with through realism, there would be no Immortal's Handbook because any deity could strike down any mortal with a thought!

Doesn't that phrase mean there is little difference between two elements so as to make arguing irrelevant? So that would imply you thought there was little difference between realism and Dungeons & Dragons?

Actually, the phrase means you're comparing two things that have nothing to do with each other, making it invalid. Economics has no place in D&D, and thus makes any economic reasoning for wealth invalid.

I don't think that is the goal though.

The goal is to present a working Wealth system for characters of any level tempered by what we know are problematic issues at epic level (namely epic item acquisition).

One that is also balanced. If you wanna give up balance for realism, go right ahead, but I imagine most people won't follow your lead in THAT area. Plus, your "standards" can't be applied to even a NORMAL game, much less a magic-heavy game. You need something that works for ALL games regardless, not just what works for UK. I believe that has been stated more than once.

By your reasoning, even a Level 200 character will have no chance against a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon simply because he won't be able to have a +15 weapon because it's "more expensive than what UK feels a character could make in a given amount of time". The same holds true for all of the more powerful Epic monsters.

Basically, you need to forget about "where does it come from" and just realize that characters keep needing more powerful items the more powerful they get, so putting a limit on any items just simply can't work! On top of that, you have to have a standard to go by, and a simple formula, and you're just not coming up with one. Yeah, you have formulas for the wealth, but as of yet, you have not given ANY formula or standard to limit magic items.

What I have done is extrapolatid the existing systems through their natural course. Simple, see?

Okay try this:

If your system is balanced why doesn't it flow seemlessly with sub-40th levels?

...and if the answer is that the sub-40th levels are unbalanced how can your system purport to be balanced if it still uses an unbalanced regime at its core?

Um, the reason it doesn't "flow seemlessly" at levels below 40 is for the same reason the core rules don't work at Epic levels, the same reason base attack bonus no longer goes up after Level 20, the same reason CR breaks down after Level 20, the same reason NOTHING works at both low AND high levels!

The reason is simple: at higher levels, the system has to change, else you lose balance. Fast Healing 10 is worth a lot at Level 1, but it's worth pretty much NOTHING at Level 41. CR 20 is CR 20, but CR 40 is actually CR 30. See what I'm getting at? The previous systems were never broken . . . They simply fail to work after a SPECIFIC point. Just the same, the core/standard wealth system works FINE and is PERFECTLY balanced up until Level 40, and in fact, would continue working past that if we left the ECL/CR system alone, but because the ECL/CR system is being changed to not be broken, we have to change the wealth to keep pace with it.

Until Level 40, the core system is just fine. After Level 40, however, THERE IS NO CORE SYSTEM. You see, yours may work fine at lower levels, but if you continue on that path, it's simply BROKEN, no way around it. You advocate ad hoc limiting of all items to the point where some things will be truly unbeatable. I advocate capping the wealth so that characters are an appropriate level before getting such items. Simple.

You seem to be resisting the urge to actuall listen to anyone about the wealth issue, despite the fact that MANY things have been poited out wrong about it. a cubic or quadratic formula has been proven to not work, so why not give the rest of us the benefit of the doubt and actually try it another way.

Heck, I challenge you to actually test it, in a game. I know I have run some tests. You say that your system works at sub-40 levels, that's fine. We're not looking for a system that works at ALL levels, though! The core rules already give us a good system that works through Level 40, so there simply is no need. I challenge you to actually test this. You'll see your cubic and quadratic formulas simply don't stand the test of time.

I prefer my system - it works at any (even non-epic) levels.

A moot point, and irrelevent. We're only looking for wealth past Level 40.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: drow SR?

Hi U_K!

Hi Blacksad mate!

and the drow SR?

a level 40 (ECL 42?) drow has SR 51 while a monster with a similar ECL should have a SR 43

Simply drop drow SR to (modified) Challenge Rating +11 if it bothers you.

I know, you said that SR has less and less importance at high-level, but it still bother me, and lead me to the thought that the IH rule didn't allowed some classic character concept like the invoker (big bad fireballs deal with SR), a bit like the ELH do not allow illusionist to be efficient at high-level (spot & listen skills), and that mage were all of the alteration/conjuration kind.

Surely there is always going to be some versus check regarding DCs in such cases?

and I would like to know how SR becomes less and less meaningful,

More and more access to abilities that block; impede or reflect spellcasting.

OK I'll try stop pestering you with SR

Thats okay mate!

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

I have to interject on one point Upper_Krust.

As per the comments made by Anubis...

If you are indeed determined to perfect this CR/ECL, and (by extension) wealth system, then making it aplicable to "all campaign settings" rather than "your campaign setting in particular" would be infinitely more preferrable.

We play in an age of "Opening Gaming Content" after all. By creating generalized core rules, individual dungeon masters can always sculpt those rules to their individual game setting likings. That way, the greatest amount of game balance can serve the greatest amount of people.

(No, I did not intentionally mean to sound like Spock there).

 

[Blacksad]

Re: Re: drow SR?

Hi Blacksad mate!

Salut Upper_Krust!

Simply drop drow SR to (modified) Challenge Rating +11 if it bothers you.

but he won't have the SR of a monster of similar CR (unless you've changed the system) that's what bother me.

Surely there is always going to be some versus check regarding DCs in such cases?

no, in the ELH a DC 100 allow you to recognize illusion, that's a stupid rule, but it is in (the skill section is full of fixed DC non-sense.

More and more access to abilities that block; impede or reflect spellcasting.

but SR is still active if the spellcaster shrug off the impediment or the reflection, so it still has some importance, hasn't it?

Thats okay mate!

arg! I can't refrain myself

A small comment on wealth, I have two level 11 characters who are the kind overlord of a metropolis, and thus have acces to much more resources than higher level characters.

That's why I think tying wealth to level is futile, especially when the high level looner ranger, will be able to buy a city with what he get in one month, it can't break a number of character concept.

Though, balancing useful magic items is important (with the ELH, you double your wealth every 8 levels), focusing only on that will prevent silly situation with wealth (perhaps instead of providing magic items with no use, expanding the hero points table from FCTF?).

 

[epote]

newbie

upper_krust:

i have some quetions for you. the probably have being answered so if you can give me links or reply.

i have been waching you here and in the wizards forum, and i have a huge question, what the hell does your nick name means!?

and second when is immortals handbook coming out (just a rough estimate since i know that deities and demigods have being publishes some time now) what format will it be, and how much will it cost


thanx in advance mate, keep up your excelent work

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Apologies for the tardy response.

You may have answered those things, but you certainly haven't been able to show that your system doesn't completely break down eventually, whereas several people have shown that it WOULD.

I don't think anyone has shown that it breaks down. I think a few people don't understand my reasoning (either philosophically or mechanically) for the wealth table - so I'll have to work on making that clearer I think.

There are some things best left unexplained. If everything was dealt with through realism, there would be no Immortal's Handbook because any deity could strike down any mortal with a thought!

Incorrect.

Its the relationship between fantasy and reality that makes fantasy what it is. Realistic elements (such as wealth) need to be handled as such. Fantastical elements need to be explained within the framework of that particular roleplaying game (such explanations can be derived solely from balance, as with the magic system).

Actually, the phrase means you're comparing two things that have nothing to do with each other, making it invalid. Economics has no place in D&D, and thus makes any economic reasoning for wealth invalid.

On the contrary, economics obviously have a place in D&D.

Why do you think equipment has a market price? Why do places have gold peice limits? Thats economics.

One that is also balanced. If you wanna give up balance for realism, go right ahead, but I imagine most people won't follow your lead in THAT area.

Whether people decide to choose or ignore this or that idea is fully up to them. However, it would be nice to think they had a valid reason for doing so!?

So far no one seems to have posted one.

Plus, your "standards" can't be applied to even a NORMAL game, much less a magic-heavy game. You need something that works for ALL games regardless, not just what works for UK. I believe that has been stated more than once.

I am working on something that works within what I perceive to be a 'standard' campaign framework.

Its always possible for people to modify aspects to better suit their campaign. But always ask yourself why you are making such a change.

By your reasoning, even a Level 200 character will have no chance against a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon simply because he won't be able to have a +15 weapon because it's "more expensive than what UK feels a character could make in a given amount of time". The same holds true for all of the more powerful Epic monsters.

You fail to understand that it is the hero who wields the sword; not the sword who wields the hero.

A 200th-level Fighter WITH NO MAGIC ITEMS could defeat a Prismatic Great Wyrm IN ONE HIT.

Basically, you need to forget about "where does it come from" and just realize that characters keep needing more powerful items the more powerful they get, so putting a limit on any items just simply can't work!

No. People need to steel themselves against the blinding allure of a bottomless pit of magic items; a neverending scaling of hardware will simply destroy campaigns; taking the focus inexorably off the characters themselves.

On top of that, you have to have a standard to go by, and a simple formula, and you're just not coming up with one. Yeah, you have formulas for the wealth, but as of yet, you have not given ANY formula or standard to limit magic items.

Both the DMG and the ELH already have a standard for this. Thats why I never mentioned it.

Um, the reason it doesn't "flow seemlessly" at levels below 40 is for the same reason the core rules don't work at Epic levels, the same reason base attack bonus no longer goes up after Level 20, the same reason CR breaks down after Level 20, the same reason NOTHING works at both low AND high levels!

Actually a number of things function at both high and low levels: Hit points; ability scores etc. You are only confusing people (including yourself) when you make these sweeping falsehoods mate.

The reason is simple: at higher levels, the system has to change, else you lose balance. Fast Healing 10 is worth a lot at Level 1, but it's worth pretty much NOTHING at Level 41. CR 20 is CR 20, but CR 40 is actually CR 30. See what I'm getting at?

No...

The previous systems were never broken . . . They simply fail to work after a SPECIFIC point.

...actually theres no 'specific' point where anything breaks down. Its simply a problem that compounds the longer you leave it.

Just the same, the core/standard wealth system works FINE and is PERFECTLY balanced up until Level 40,

Possibly (love the use of the word 'perfectly' in such an arbitrary mechanism by the way); but there is nowhere that says it all immediately breaks down at 41st-level.

The Challenge Ratings are modified arbitrarily; its more important that you have a mechanic for this rather than the mechanic itself.

and in fact, would continue working past that if we left the ECL/CR system alone, but because the ECL/CR system is being changed to not be broken, we have to change the wealth to keep pace with it.

I have changed the wealth to keep pace with it.

Until Level 40, the core system is just fine. After Level 40, however, THERE IS NO CORE SYSTEM. You see, yours may work fine at lower levels, but if you continue on that path, it's simply BROKEN, no way around it. You advocate ad hoc limiting of all items to the point where some things will be truly unbeatable.

That simply isn't the case. Your inherantly flawed Prismatic Great Wyrm vs. 200th-level character example shows that.

I advocate capping the wealth so that characters are an appropriate level before getting such items. Simple.

I don't see it working like that though.

Firstly, a character will amass wealth that is not simply comprised of its first choice personal equipment.

Secondly, the value of that personal equipment will virtually level off at a certain point (with the exception of artifacts) because such items simply won't exist due to the extensive time and energy necessary to create them.

You seem to be resisting the urge to actuall listen to anyone about the wealth issue, despite the fact that MANY things have been poited out wrong about it.

Thats simply not true. I listen and respond to all points of view fairly and openly...

a cubic or quadratic formula has been proven to not work, so why not give the rest of us the benefit of the doubt and actually try it another way.

...I simply don't agree that anyone has proven a fault in either my reasoning or mechanics on this issue.

Heck, I challenge you to actually test it, in a game. I know I have run some tests. You say that your system works at sub-40 levels, that's fine. We're not looking for a system that works at ALL levels, though! The core rules already give us a good system that works through Level 40, so there simply is no need. I challenge you to actually test this. You'll see your cubic and quadratic formulas simply don't stand the test of time.

I have tested them.

A moot point, and irrelevent. We're only looking for wealth past Level 40.

Perhaps you are.

I however, am looking for a wealth system to accomodate all levels. For one thing I may not have the ELH to draw upon.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

I have to interject on one point Upper_Krust.

Sure, fire away mate!

As per the comments made by Anubis...

If you are indeed determined to perfect this CR/ECL, and (by extension) wealth system, then making it aplicable to "all campaign settings" rather than "your campaign setting in particular" would be infinitely more preferrable.

Absolutely.

We play in an age of "Opening Gaming Content" after all. By creating generalized core rules, individual dungeon masters can always sculpt those rules to their individual game setting likings. That way, the greatest amount of game balance can serve the greatest amount of people.

Indeed.

(No, I did not intentionally mean to sound like Spock there).

What parts are you saying are illogical?

I'm a game designer; not a mind reader!

Incidently I may not be able to respond to the posts by Blacksad and epote for a while - I'm going to be away from the computer for at least a few hours. Later.

 

[Xeriar]

You fail to understand that it is the hero who wields the sword; not the sword who wields the hero.

A 200th-level Fighter WITH NO MAGIC ITEMS could defeat a Prismatic Great Wyrm IN ONE HIT.

What Great Wyrm, what -anything- of such intelligence is going to be vulnerable to critical hits at that point?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: drow SR?

Salut Upper_Krust!

Hi Blacksad matey!

but he won't have the SR of a monster of similar CR (unless you've changed the system) that's what bother me.

If a deity wants to make its spell resistance (at the expense of other abilities) virtually unassailable - then it can.

Likewise if a deity wants to make spell penetration a priority then typically any relative spell resistance will be defeated.

Its not a matter of having spell resistance balanced at any level. At a certain point you just have to let it go.

no, in the ELH a DC 100 allow you to recognize illusion, that's a stupid rule, but it is in (the skill section is full of fixed DC non-sense.

High-level Illusionists could always create Epic Illusions.

From my experience divine level characters will be packing some sort of true seeing capability though.

but SR is still active if the spellcaster shrug off the impediment or the reflection, so it still has some importance, hasn't it?

But its not AS important - which was my point.

arg! I can't refrain myself

A small comment on wealth, I have two level 11 characters who are the kind overlord of a metropolis, and thus have acces to much more resources than higher level characters.

That's why I think tying wealth to level is futile, especially when the high level looner ranger, will be able to buy a city with what he get in one month, it can't break a number of character concept.

Character development is all part of the reason why I always advocate playing characters from low-level rather than simply starting from epic or divine levels.

However, this is still a necessary resource for creating NPCs.

Though, balancing useful magic items is important (with the ELH, you double your wealth every 8 levels),

Actually it approximately doubles at increased level increments (21st-25th-30th-36th-43rd?)

focusing only on that will prevent silly situation with wealth (perhaps instead of providing magic items with no use, expanding the hero points table from FCTF?).

Exactly why I have divided the wealth and personal equipment tables.