Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Gez]

Coucou Craig !

Nope.

Not as pronounced as the difference between the spellcasting abilities of each.

The fighter needs potions, rings and rods, true. Plus his constant effect items.

The trouble is you have to pay for the cake first.

We French says "wanting the butter and the money of the butter".

The wizard class doesn't pay enough to get comparable fighter progression at epic levels.

What could they pay ? Their BAB progression don't increase (their Fort and Ref save do, though, likewise the fighter's Ref and Will).

Yes and AC is usually at least halved (or better) against touch spells.

A fighter with a brillant energy weapon is practically (well, epic monsters tend to have huge natural armor) doing touch attacks also.

Yes but the Wizard gets feats too...AND spells.

Much less feats, and very, very few wizards take combat feats. AFAIK, no martial feat is on his epic bonus feat list.

Exactly and I don't see why the balance between melee and magic should be any different for the Wizard at epic levels.

I don't had the feeling the wizard started being better at hacking'n'slashing that at spellweaving past epic levels.

You can still have a Wizard that can competantly fight; they are called multi-class Wizard-Fighters.

That's what I said by spellsword, the PrC is practically a multiclass figther/wizard without bonus feats but freed of arcane spell failure for armor.

I am not familiar with Ars Magica but it must attempt some balance between Fighter types and Spellcaster types, otherwise everyone plays a spellcaster.

The purpose of Ars Magica is to play a spellcaster. Actually, everyone has at least two characters, a mage and a powerful non-spellcaster (they may create others if they want, notably servants). Ars Magica is a game centered on the mage covenant, which is a sort of meta-character, rather than on a party. Depending on the scenario, you play one or one other character, and may switch character inside a session.

The balance is clearly biased toward mages -- the only offset of being a mage is you have half the skill points other characters have to invest in mundane skills (like weapon skills).

That's an excellent game, by the way, and I long to playing it again.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Bonjour mon ami!

Coucou Craig !

I probably am!

The fighter needs potions, rings and rods, true. Plus his constant effect items.

All of which the wizard gets; and more.

We French says "wanting the butter and the money of the butter".

Maybe it loses something in the translation.

What could they pay ? Their BAB progression don't increase (their Fort and Ref save do, though, likewise the fighter's Ref and Will).

I'm not asking them to pay; I am simply maintaining their current progression.

A fighter with a brillant energy weapon is practically (well, epic monsters tend to have huge natural armor) doing touch attacks also.

Hardly de rigeur though, and what about spells that never miss like Magic Missile?

Much less feats,

Yet infinitely more spells.

and very, very few wizards take combat feats. AFAIK, no martial feat is on his epic bonus feat list.

Exactly, why would any sane wizard attempt to melee.

I don't had the feeling the wizard started being better at hacking'n'slashing that at spellweaving past epic levels.

But the epic BAB progression tells us otherwise.

That's what I said by spellsword, the PrC is practically a multiclass figther/wizard without bonus feats but freed of arcane spell failure for armor.

Well then use the Spellsword PrC; presumably it must be balanced in some regards.

The purpose of Ars Magica is to play a spellcaster. Actually, everyone has at least two characters, a mage and a powerful non-spellcaster (they may create others if they want, notably servants). Ars Magica is a game centered on the mage covenant, which is a sort of meta-character, rather than on a party. Depending on the scenario, you play one or one other character, and may switch character inside a session.

The balance is clearly biased toward mages -- the only offset of being a mage is you have half the skill points other characters have to invest in mundane skills (like weapon skills).

I rest my case!

That's an excellent game, by the way, and I long to playing it again.

I keep hearing a lot about its excellent magic system.

 

[Gez]

Hello again,

I probably am!

I've a feeling you looked at the wrong meaning in your dictionnary...

Maybe it loses something in the translation.

Possible, but it corresponded to what you said when you said we had to buy the cake, and thus can't have both the cake and the money spent on it.

I keep hearing a lot about its excellent magic system.

It's indeed quite excellent. To sum it up, you can use either formal magic (spells already made, and learned) or spontaneous magic (improvising an effect). Magical effects are based on 5 "verbs" (creo - to make, intellego - to understand, muto - to change, perdo - to destroy, and rego - to control) and 10 "nouns" (animal, aquam -water, auram - air, corporem - human(-like) body, herbam - plant, ignem - fire, imaginem - perceptions, mentem - thought, terram - earth, vim - magic).

A mage has a score in each of these 15 arts, so a mage specialized in fiery destructive magic will have high score in perdo (to destroy and harm things in general), ignem (to manipulate fire, light and temperature), as well as in creo (to use with ignem for making his balls of abyssal fire). A mage may be somewhat generalist, and have medium scores in each art (thus able to do a bit of everything), or specialized and have just 3-4 high scores, and low scores in the other fields.

A spell always use at least one verb and one noun, but may use several of each -- a spell that turns a man into a toad would be Muto Corporem with an Animal complement.

The highest a score, the most potent the effect may be - lighting a torch is a first magnitude Creo Ignem spell, and may be achieved by nearly any magus, but improvising a D&D-style Fireball will be in the 6th or higher magnitude -- only talented mages will achieve it successfully.

Unless you botch, spontaneous magic always work, but the result are usually rather puny. Formal magic is practically 3 times as potent.

The system is great in that it allows a great deal of flexibility for the characters when making their magic effects, yet it's still easy to know what arts must be used, and what magnitude must be aimed at, for achieving a spell. The Mage: the Ascension system of magic, while thoughtful and well-made, is rather counter-intuitive.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again,

Bonjour mon ami Gez!

I've a feeling you looked at the wrong meaning in your dictionnary...

No I understood what you meant, I just used the opportunity for some lighthearted relief.

Possible, but it corresponded to what you said when you said we had to buy the cake, and thus can't have both the cake and the money spent on it.

Indeed.

It's indeed quite excellent. To sum it up, you can use either formal magic (spells already made, and learned) or spontaneous magic (improvising an effect). Magical effects are based on 5 "verbs" (creo - to make, intellego - to understand, muto - to change, perdo - to destroy, and rego - to control) and 10 "nouns" (animal, aquam -water, auram - air, corporem - human(-like) body, herbam - plant, ignem - fire, imaginem - perceptions, mentem - thought, terram - earth, vim - magic).

Very interesting!

Actually a few years ago I was designing a computer RPG and I arrived at a similar sort of magic system (though I must confess my initial ideas sprung from one of my favourite computer games of all time 'Dungeon Master').

A mage has a score in each of these 15 arts, so a mage specialized in fiery destructive magic will have high score in perdo (to destroy and harm things in general), ignem (to manipulate fire, light and temperature), as well as in creo (to use with ignem for making his balls of abyssal fire). A mage may be somewhat generalist, and have medium scores in each art (thus able to do a bit of everything), or specialized and have just 3-4 high scores, and low scores in the other fields.

A spell always use at least one verb and one noun, but may use several of each -- a spell that turns a man into a toad would be Muto Corporem with an Animal complement.

The highest a score, the most potent the effect may be - lighting a torch is a first magnitude Creo Ignem spell, and may be achieved by nearly any magus, but improvising a D&D-style Fireball will be in the 6th or higher magnitude -- only talented mages will achieve it successfully.

Unless you botch, spontaneous magic always work, but the result are usually rather puny. Formal magic is practically 3 times as potent.

The system is great in that it allows a great deal of flexibility for the characters when making their magic effects, yet it's still easy to know what arts must be used, and what magnitude must be aimed at, for achieving a spell. The Mage: the Ascension system of magic, while thoughtful and well-made, is rather counter-intuitive.

I wonder will Monte Cooks Arcana Unearthed have something like this? I know he spoke recently on his website about certain changes to magic he is making.

 

[Dinkeldog]

I'm going to lock this thread down because of length.

If you'd like to have it saved permanently in the archives, put it in the thread in Meta and PCat can look at that. In the meantime, I'll start a second thread and put in a link to this one.