Using a buckler

[diaglo]

Primary Weapon/Longsword (full iterative), Secondary Weapon/Spiked Gauntlet (single attack), Spiked Buckler (left; single attack), Spiked Buckler (right; single attack), Armor Spikes (single attack), Blade Boot (left; single attack), Blade Boot (right; single attack), Dancing Weapon/Longsword (full iterative).

Nah, I don't miss spiked bucklers much.

^_^

you forgot to make the character a drow.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

Kote? I thought those were for the leg, between the knee and ankle? Maybe I'm misremembering...

Kote is japanese for wrist (or forearm), IIRC.

Maitre D

 

[melkoriii]

Huh? Am I missing something?

Doesn't a +3 buckler give a +4 Armor Bonus?

-Hyp.

Correct.
And a +3 Small Shield gives a +4 AC.

I just dont see the reason why the Buckler can not be used at the same time with a weapon being use in that hand.

Anywho

 

[LokiDR]

Greatsword of throwing and returing, armor with armor spikes. Feats: ambidex, two weapon fighting, point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon focus: greatsword, specialization: greatsword. Full iterative attack with the greatsword at -4, armor spikes at -4, step back (5 foot) throw greatsword. That is 4 attacks at 4th level and perfectly legal.

Now, will a DM allow you to do it? Maybe, but that doesn't every one will. That also doesn't make it illegal by the rules.

Allowing bowmen to be able to threaten an area around them can be done with armor spikes without a "free hand". So, I would allow the use of a spike gauntlet for AoOs. This doesn't break balance, it rewards PCs for thinking about weaknesses and trying to compensate. The amount of damage delt this way is going to be minimal, and the swing is going to be made with penalties from rapid shot if used the past round.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Yep, Bucklers iz Ridiculous!

Historically, spiked Bucklers existed. In 1.5e (the ORIGINAL Unearthed Arcana) they also existed. In 3e, they are also disallowed.

Note, however, that they are referred to in the main FAQ

Under the description of Weapon Finesse with two weapons, from memory.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Greatsword of throwing and returing, armor with armor spikes. Feats: ambidex, two weapon fighting, point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon focus: greatsword, specialization: greatsword. Full iterative attack with the greatsword at -4, armor spikes at -4, step back (5 foot) throw greatsword. That is 4 attacks at 4th level and perfectly legal.

Now, will a DM allow you to do it? Maybe, but that doesn't every one will. That also doesn't make it illegal by the rules.

Allowing bowmen to be able to threaten an area around them can be done with armor spikes without a "free hand". So, I would allow the use of a spike gauntlet for AoOs. This doesn't break balance, it rewards PCs for thinking about weaknesses and trying to compensate. The amount of damage delt this way is going to be minimal, and the swing is going to be made with penalties from rapid shot if used the past round.

I disagree on the "legality" of your four attacks and also on threatening with armor spikes without a free hand.

1. Rapid shot requires the full attack action and gives you an "extra" ranged attack - it's pretty obvious, I think, that the full attack must be with a ranged attack in the first place.

2. Spiked armor is primarily for grappling. It's fairly obvious, isn't it, that you need a free hand to attack as a melee weapon because otherwise you'd have to be in your opponent's square to reach them. This means you cannot use spiked armor as a second weapon if you are using a two-handed weapon.

3. Same logic as (2) as to why you cannot threaten with armor spikes without a free hand.

It's possible to allow all you stated within the rules, but it's a rather hyper-technical reading of the rules.

 

[LokiDR]

I disagree on the "legality" of your four attacks and also on threatening with armor spikes without a free hand.

1. Rapid shot requires the full attack action and gives you an "extra" ranged attack - it's pretty obvious, I think, that the full attack must be with a ranged attack in the first place.

2. Spiked armor is primarily for grappling. It's fairly obvious, isn't it, that you need a free hand to attack as a melee weapon because otherwise you'd have to be in your opponent's square to reach them. This means you cannot use spiked armor as a second weapon if you are using a two-handed weapon.

3. Same logic as (2) as to why you cannot threaten with armor spikes without a free hand.

It's possible to allow all you stated within the rules, but it's a rather hyper-technical reading of the rules.

Rapid shot does not mention the full attack being ranged, and there is no errata or FAQ entry on this.

Spiked armor does not state it only works in grappling, that it was made for grappling, or that it is in any way different in use than other martial weapons. There is no errata or FAQ entry on this.

It is perfectly legal. You use terms like "obvious" to make statements about the rules. When it comes to rules, it is either written in the rules or it isn't. Intent is not an issue unless it is ambiguous. Rapid shot and armor spikes are not ambigous. It is legal by the rules, and not hypertechnical, like rogues being procient with kukris and barbarians being able to resist fireballs with their DR.

This in no way means that DMs are obligated to allow it, unless they are running a living campaign. DM can easily make the house rule for armor spikes or ranged full attack for rapid shot. Many have. This, however, is a house rule and does not apply to everyone's games. Bag of Snails is perfectly legal tatic. Whether a person allows it in their game is an entirely different matter.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1. Rapid shot requires the full attack action and gives you an "extra" ranged attack - it's pretty obvious, I think, that the full attack must be with a ranged attack in the first place.

I'm afraid I'm going to call you on the "obvious" there as well.

By my reading, it's "obvious" that hack-hack-throw is a perfectly valid use of the Rapid Shot feat.

However, I'm going to agree with you on Armor Spikes. Notice that a monk, for example, is explicitly only allowed to make an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack if he is using a one-handed weapon... despite the fact that his unarmed strikes are described as being punches, kicks, knees, headbutts, or whatever.

So no greatsword-plus-kick even if you're a monk.

Given the monk precedent - that someone who is specially trained in using parts of his body that are not hands cannot make an off-hand attack if he's using a two-handed weapon - I have no trouble declaring that you can't use armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet if you're using a two-handed weapon like a greatsword or a bow.

Of course, the bowman has the "free action to stop using the bow at the end of each turn, free action to start using the bow at the beginning of each turn" option, following the longspear example in the FAQ... which makes sense for anyone except an OotBI with the "Free Shot" ability.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

However, I'm going to agree with you on Armor Spikes. Notice that a monk, for example, is explicitly only allowed to make an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack if he is using a one-handed weapon... despite the fact that his unarmed strikes are described as being punches, kicks, knees, headbutts, or whatever.

So no greatsword-plus-kick even if you're a monk.

Given the monk precedent - that someone who is specially trained in using parts of his body that are not hands cannot make an off-hand attack if he's using a two-handed weapon - I have no trouble declaring that you can't use armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet if you're using a two-handed weapon like a greatsword or a bow.


-Hyp.

Is that a mechanic of monk or unarmed strike? Is attacking with armor spikes consided an unarmed strike or a use of the martial weapon proficency?

I'll agree that hack-hack-kick might not be a viable option (open to debate) but that doesn't mean it applies to armor spikes as written.

 

[Sejs]

Doh, I knew I forgot something! I forgot to make the primary/longsword a throwing/returning weapon and use Rapid Shot. Thanks for the reminder, Loki~

^_^


Artoomis:

2. Spiked armor is primarily for grappling. It's fairly obvious, isn't it, that you need a free hand to attack as a melee weapon because otherwise you'd have to be in your opponent's square to reach them. This means you cannot use spiked armor as a second weapon if you are using a two-handed weapon.

There are no Close Combat Only weapons in 3e. A monk threatens everywhere within 5' of him with all parts of his body. So do Armor Spikes. Armor Spikes and a Spiked Gauntlet are not synonymous - they're two seperate weapons with two seperate proficiencies required to use 'em. Spiked Gauntlets are a simple weapon that you use with a punching motion; Armor Spikes are a martial weapon that are more complicated to use (forearm bash, shoulder check, elbow, knee, etc). A suit of armor with Armor Spikes doesn't include Spiked Gauntlets - you'd have to buy them seperatly. This says that Armor Spikes don't involve the use of your hands, which is why they're more difficult to use than just a normal unarmed strike.

Your hands do not always have to be involved in the use of a weapon - a Spiked Small Shield still lets you hold something in the hand the shield is on. Blade Boots don't require your hands to be free.