D&D 5E Using a shield as an 'improvised weapon' while retaining the AC bonus

Out of curiosity, does this mean that if you had both the Two-Weapon Fighting style and the Dual Wielder feat:

(a) You would have a total AC bonus of +3, due to the shield giving +2 and the feat giving +1?
(b) You could maintain the shield bonus to AC and make a bonus action attack using the shield as an improvised weapon, adding your ability modifier for that attack (Strength, since the shield isn't Finesse)?

I'm not a dual-wielder myself (my Bard is a grappler), so none of this applies to me personally. I'm just curious how you guys would rule on this.
 

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Out of curiosity, does this mean that if you had both the Two-Weapon Fighting style and the Dual Wielder feat:

(a) You would have a total AC bonus of +3, due to the shield giving +2 and the feat giving +1?
(b) You could maintain the shield bonus to AC and make a bonus action attack using the shield as an improvised weapon, adding your ability modifier for that attack (Strength, since the shield isn't Finesse)?

I'm not a dual-wielder myself (my Bard is a grappler), so none of this applies to me personally. I'm just curious how you guys would rule on this.

(b) is supported by RAW, as far as I'm concerned.

For (a), my personal ruling would be: sort of.

Consider - the point of the +1 from Duel Wielder is that you are proficient in using two objects in concert to defend yourself. Since you are required to have both hands in use to gain the bonus, that seems to carry over nicely. You are using both hands together to provide more defence than you could otherwise - the fact that the thing you are holding in your off hand provides an AC bonus is merely an extra.

However, the Dual Wielder feat requires you to be using the shield as a weapon. I would personally say that no, that's not going to gel with the training Dual Wielder provides. If, however, a character was proficient in using a shield as a weapon - I'd allow either the Shield Master or Tavern Brawler feats - then I would allow it.

Two feats might seem a lot to in, but either of them synergise nicely with this theme.
 


From Basic:

Improvised Weapons
- Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a
frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
- In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club.
- At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
- An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type
appropriate to the object).
- If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a
normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.

Two-Weapon Fighting
- When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can
use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t
add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
- If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.

Shields.
- A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.

Light.
- A light weapon is small and easy to handle, making it ideal for use when fighting with two weapons.

-------------

A shield is not a weapon, but can clearly be used as an improvised weapon, since anything can.

"LIGHT" is a weapon property defined by how the weapon works in 2WF. It is not a general property defined by the weight or an object. It is narratively and generically linked to a weapon's size and shape, but the only thing that really determines whether a weapon is light is if it has the LIGHT tag on it in the weapon table. Objects that aren't weapons don't even contemplate the possibility of having this tag, even if used as improvised weapons. Only a generous DM can decide than an object used as an improvised weapon works as "LIGHT" for 2WF, but even an object that is "light in terms of weight" isn't necessarily "LIGHT" for 2WF.

The off-hand attack as bonus action of 2WF is possible exclusively with a "LIGHT" weapon.

Conclusions:

> Without special abilities (e.g. feats) you cannot attack with a shield as part of 2WF.
> You can attack with a shield using your normal attack action, and doing so doesn't make you to lose the AC bonus.

You take pains to detail the requirements of TWF. It requires an attack with a (light) (melee) (weapon) (in one hand), which then opens up a bonus attack with a (light) (melee) (weapon) (in the other hand).

You pointed out that the (light) requirement would fall away if you have the Dual Wielder feat, and the rules for TWF already let you replace the (melee) with (thrown), but there is nothing that takes away the (weapon) requirement.

The improvised weapon rule allows you to attack with objects do not have the (weapon) tag. Those rules do not give a (not weapon) the (weapon) tag any more than they give the (light) tag or the (finesse) tag.

Since shields (and any other improvised weapons) are not (weapons), they do not qualify to be used to execute a TWF attack, by your own logic.

But what about Jeremy Craword's logic?

Q: A shield as an improvised weapon with the Dual Wielding feat: Does the feat's +1 AC stack with the shield +2 AC that round?

A (from Crawford): Dual Wielder is meant to work (RAI) with a melee weapon or an equivalent, not something like a shield.

Q: Um, you're the one who previously Tweeted that a shield can be used as an Improvised Weapon! How's that not a melee weapon?

A (from Crawford): Yes, a shield, like many things, can be used as an improvised weapon. This has no bearing on the design intent of Dual Wielder.

The improvised weapon rule exists to allow you to attack with objects that are not weapons; it doesn't mean that they actually are weapons. The word 'weapon' has a meaning in the game, and interacts with other rules. Some spells require them to be cast on a 'weapon', fighting styles benefit 'weapons', the TWF rules require 'weapons'. Just because the improvised weapon rule allows you to pick up any old object and whack someone with it does not mean that the object itself has changed into an object designed to be used in combat, which is what the word 'weapon' means in the game.
 


One of my players thinks that (a) shields should qualify as 'light' improvised weapons, and (b) characters should retain the shield AC bonus while using a shield as a weapon.
Why would it count as a light weapon? Shields are anything but light.

I would allow the shield to count as an improvised weapon. Past debates have persuaded me that it'd even be okay to let the wielder keep the AC bonus; it costs you two feats (Two-Weapon Mastery and Tavern Brawler) to effectively dual-wield sword and board, and I don't feel like +2 AC is an excessive benefit for a two-feat investment. However, asking for the shield to count as "light" is a blatant attempt to exploit the dual wielding rules. Nix on that.

The other question is whether you could use the Duelist and Two-Weapon Fighting styles at the same time this way (assuming you find a way to get them both, perhaps by multiclassing or being a high-level Champion fighter). My inclination is to say no; an improvised weapon still counts as a weapon for purposes of Duelist. But I might be persuaded otherwise.
 

Why would it count as a light weapon? Shields are anything but light.

I would allow the shield to count as an improvised weapon. Past debates have persuaded me that it'd even be okay to let the wielder keep the AC bonus; it costs you two feats (Two-Weapon Mastery and Tavern Brawler) to effectively dual-wield sword and board, and I don't feel like +2 AC is an excessive benefit for a two-feat investment. However, asking for the shield to count as "light" is a blatant attempt to exploit the dual wielding rules. Nix on that.

The other question is whether you could use the Duelist and Two-Weapon Fighting styles at the same time this way (assuming you find a way to get them both, perhaps by multiclassing or being a high-level Champion fighter). My inclination is to say no; an improvised weapon still counts as a weapon for purposes of Duelist. But I might be persuaded otherwise.

So Jeremy Crawford saying that you can't use shields (as improvised weapons) in TWF doesn't influence your opinion?
 


That was because the early big of this thread predated that ruling. IIRC we had another discussion a little later that discussed that but got more heated.
Someone did some necromancy a couple days ago...

I assumed as much, but I figured it might be helpful to reference the rulings.
 

a lot of shield-bearing NPC's can shield bash...

Yes. Even PCs can shield bash using the rules for improvised weapons.

But neither does so by using the TWF rules, because those rules require actual weapons, not improvised weapons; objects designed to be weapons, as opposed to objects not designed to be weapons.
 

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