Using the Warmain as the basis for a Knight core class

[Erekose]

I've looked at various suggested Knight core classes and none of them have worked for me.

I think the main problem is the difficulty mixing the "tank" aspect of the class and the "horserider" aspect.

I've concluded that for the core class the tank point of view is the way to go and I will encourage the prestige class, the Cavalier, for those that which to specialise in horseback combat.

The best version I've read to fit this is the Warmain from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. However, class from UA are slightly overpowered for a standard D&D campaign.

My questions are, therefore:

1. What should be toned down in the Warmain?

2. Is there anything that could be added to give it more Knight flavour (I'm thinking of replacing the 1st level bonus feat (Sturdy) with the 1st level ability (Courtley Knowledge) from the Cavalier PrC - although this is not a balanced switch so may need further thought!)

 

[Khaalis]

I think one of the 1st and foremost thing you need to do is ask yourself the question: What is a Knight?

"Knight" is such a broad term that it really shouldnt be the sole defining word for a class until you determine its specific definition.

Do you mean an Arthurian Knight that stands for the typical Knight in Shining Armor - Sir Lancelot, Vows, Duty, Loyalty and Service to a true king?

Do you simply mean a historical English night that simply meant you were nobility and served a military position, usually as Heavy Cavalry (such as Sir John a baronial man-at-arms)?

Do you mean a Knight Templar, a dedicated and almost zealous devoty to a cause or church?

What about differences of literary knights - the White Knight, the Black Knight, the Gray Knight and the Green Knight?

On a more game mechanic side of things, personally I feel the Fighter is the perfect starting place for the "Knight" aspect. After all a Knight is nothing more than a Fighter Archetype. If you wish to bring the Nobility aspect of the Knight to the fore, you need only tweak the class slightly.

I would suggest adding an ability as you mention at first level that suits your needs for the representation of the Noble aspect of the class. You mention the Cavelier PrC's Courtly Knowledge. There are many of these types of Noble/Courtier abilities such as in Oriental Adventures and various Noble class sources. A very good sourcebook for Nobility is the Noble's Handbook by Green Ronin.

Aside from adding that single ability I would add the basic noble social skills of Diplomacy and Knowledge (Nobility) to the Fighter's class list, as well as possibly even Sense Motive depending on how "Noble" you want to make the class.

Asside from that, altering the list of Bonus feats is all you need to do. Trim the options to be those that fit into your ideal of the Knight. Maybe add some that are nobility oriented as well such as Negotiator.

Just my initial thoughts off the top of my head.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I agree, I have to say that I think the fighter is the most appropriate choice for a knight character.

A tweak (as per PHB/DMG guidelines) to allow Knowledge(Royalty and nobility), an appropriate feat selection and you are away. Could even multiclass more or less with the aristocrat NPC class if required.

 

[Gez]

It's what I've done too.

Amongst the changes I've made, their capacity to wield oversized weapons has been nerfed to apply only for mounted combat. Like those huge spears used during cavalry charges or for joustling.

 

[Erekose]

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate your points of view on the fighter class but going down that route is a decision we have agreed not to take.

I would be grateful for some comments on my original questions - particularly in terms of balance issue for the Warmain.

Cheers!

 

[Khaalis]

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate your points of view on the fighter class but going down that route is a decision we have agreed not to take.

I would be grateful for some comments on my original questions - particularly in terms of balance issue for the Warmain.

Cheers!

Ok, this then begs the question of why are you set on the Warmain if you feel it is too powerful? It isnt that different from the fighter except that it pins the Fighter to a more set grouping of Class Abilies rather than being more free-form like a Fighter. I'm am just confused.

What does the Warmain have that a Fighter doest have to make it overpowered? Lets look...

Warmain has better HD @ d12 vs. Fighter d10
Same BAB
Same Saves
Warmain gains Class Skills over the Fighter = Knowledge (Architecture, Engineering, History, Nobility & Courtesy).
Same Skill Points
Warmain gains 1 extra Class Ability (at 15th level) than a Fighter

If this is too powerful, the only way to trim it back is to baiscally make it a Fighter again.

If you want to make the Warmain a "Knight" it is basically already there - just limit the bonus feats to "Knightly" feats and replace any class abilities you dont like (like weapon size increase) with something you see as more "Knightly".

Really not sure what else you are looking for on this one. Sorry.

 

[Erekose]

Thanks Khaalis.

I wasn't looking for anything terribly detailed - more of a sense check that using the Warmain wouldn't be unbalancing.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The warmain really only outshines the fighter at high levels (12th+), and many, many folks agree that fighters are pretty sad, versatility-wise AND power-wise, at those levels. I'd say use the Warmain and have done with it.

 

[maggot]

Warmain has better HD @ d12 vs. Fighter d10
Same BAB
Same Saves

I don't have my AU book with me, but I'm pretty sure Warmains have better saves than Fighters.

 

[Khaalis]

I don't have my AU book with me, but I'm pretty sure Warmains have better saves than Fighters.

Nope. When I posted that I was lookig at the book. Warmains get Good Fortitude only, same as fighters.

The warmain really only outshines the fighter at high levels (12th+), and many, many folks agree that fighters are pretty sad, versatility-wise AND power-wise, at those levels. I'd say use the Warmain and have done with it.

The Warmain is basically the AU blend of Barbarian and Fighter into one class and giving it the Educated Military mind as well rather than the basic D&D dumb brute mentality.

As for Fighter versatility lacking – this is only because of the limited Feat selection of the Core Rules. If 3rd party source material is used the Fighter at high levels can be very diverse. As for power level – I agree that the Fighter is weak and I use an Alt.Fighter that grants a boon to the Fighter to stick with his levels post 10 rather than taking any of the zillion PrC’s.