Vampire in play

[GMforPowergamers]

Some of the guys and I did a quick delve to try the vamp out... we set up a 3 combat encounters and a skill challange.

encounter 1) Kobold guards... 2 dragon sheilds, what ever the 2 dagger kobold is called and 10 minons

encounter 2) skill challange: unlock the mystic door

encounter 3) zombies and skeletons

encounter 4) a hombe brew solo mummy

we called it the tomb of the dragonking

we then ran through twice...

team 1- Human Longsword weapon master fighter, Dwarf Tac Warlord, Voloka Vampire, shadar ki Gloom pack warlock, and eladrin monk

team 2- Half elf Gloom pack hexblade, Kalashar Psion, Mul Warden, tiefling slayer, half elf bard

ok so first things first... we made it through both times, but team 2 had a much harder time about it (in encounter 4 a lucky crit droped the bard round 2... and that was a major issue)

but lets go fight by fight (we took notes)

fight 1...
team 1- the vampire was good, compaired to the monk he really seamed a decent striker. the fight lasted 6 rounds...but both round 5 and 6 it was 1 bloodied dragon shield left
team 2- wow this was way shorter of a fight... round 1 the slayer and warden both double teamed a dragonshield and droped it... then with an action point a augmented memory hole, and a disharten droped half the minons...

skill challange...
both teams breezed through this 8 successes 0 fails

fight 2...
team 1 the vampire got hit hard in this one, he was quickly at single digit hp... and his regen was going most of the fight, andwe all agreeed if anyone else took the hits he did they would be dead...at one point he fought a skeleton who kept knocking down 3-6 hp and the vamp regened 4... he told the warlord not to heal him...and at the end of the fight he had 3 surges so he was full.
team 2 the hex blade made a bunch of castlvaina jokes... but the fight was must quicker...again 2 rounds quicker

fight 3...
team 1 rocked... the fighter and warlord both opened with daily, and action point, the vampire did ok, and this is the first time team 1 took less time... it bloodied the mummy round 2, and killed it round 5
team 2 sucked... as said above the bard got crit and droped round 2...and didn't get brought back up till round 5 (with 2 failed death saves) so that round majestic worded himself...leading to the round 6 were the psion, hexblade, and slayer were all at single digit hp... the warden on the other hand was doing the most damage this encounter... and round 6 also saw the solo bloodied... round 7 a crit from the slayer and the mummy finaly fell.


our results: the vampire is a low damage striker (like avenger warlock and monk) but it;s bonus is survival... in fact at the end of fight 3 the vamp still has 2 surges... the same as the warden, and more then the monk or fighter.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This isn't false in any way. Targeting NADs is not truly equivalent to a bonus to accuracy for a striker and neither does it significantly boost the vampires DPR.

I think you miss the difference between targeting NADs and your choice of NAD to target. The Infernal Warlock gains nothing by targetting reflex - reflex is always the same as reflex. But if you get to pick the NAD, you can go for the Brute's Will or the Controller's Fort. This is the approach my monk takes (or rather he kicks skirmishers in the head and whirlwind attacks brutes and soldiers). Which effect to pick is a balancing act (one of the reasons I despise Twin Strike) and the against will has its charms - especially if your charisma matches your dexterity (and you can either shift back or play games with Defender Auras).

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I think you miss the difference between targeting NADs and your choice of NAD to target. The Infernal Warlock gains nothing by targetting reflex - reflex is always the same as reflex. But if you get to pick the NAD, you can go for the Brute's Will or the Controller's Fort. This is the approach my monk takes (or rather he kicks skirmishers in the head and whirlwind attacks brutes and soldiers). Which effect to pick is a balancing act (one of the reasons I despise Twin Strike) and the against will has its charms - especially if your charisma matches your dexterity (and you can either shift back or play games with Defender Auras).

What are you talking about in this part that I underlined?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

What are you talking about in this part that I underlined?

I do believe he's talking about the leech's ability to choose which NAD to target, so you can always target, if you so choose, their weakest defense.

Granted, it's not always going to work out that way in practice, since you may need to use the tHP-granting attack over and over, but it gives you an option for accuracy.

Brad

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What are you talking about in this part that I underlined?

He's saying there is quite a difference between a character who's powers target one specific NAD and one which has equivalent options against ANY NAD.

Of course there is also another response to this, which is that you can't really find a class/build that cleanly falls into one of these camps. There are builds which largely target one or two NADs and the effects they can achieve against one or the other may significantly differ, but it would be quite rare to find a character that has NO choice except to target FORT or REF and can't fall back on a decent alternative going for a different NAD for at least a significant number of its attacks. The Vampire however DOES have a notable degree of flexibility in which defense to target, which is advantageous. It isn't alone in this though, so you would be hard pressed to argue it is a unique selling point. OTOH it is a useful advantage. Another knock against that however is you'll probably end up with some feats and such that will more heavily favor one over the other.

Overall I'm not highly sold on the argument, but there is something to it, and conceptually it is a perfectly valid point. The real question is if it is ever effectively realized in practice to a degree that it makes a measurable difference.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I do believe he's talking about the leech's ability to choose which NAD to target, so you can always target, if you so choose, their weakest defense.

Granted, it's not always going to work out that way in practice, since you may need to use the tHP-granting attack over and over, but it gives you an option for accuracy.

Brad

What are you talking about by choosing which NAD to target? The powers of the vampire all have a specific NAD that they target so I really don't get what you mean.

Also there are only three powers that grant a +2 and that is to Charisma which is most likely going to be their second stat while Dex is their first so it essentially evens out.

You have one power that targets Ref, one Will and one Fort. It also really depends on what you are fighting.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

You have one power that targets Ref, one Will and one Fort. It also really depends on what you are fighting.

...

You can CHOOSE which power to use on a target. So you can CHOOSE to target the Brute's Reflex or Will, rather than their Fortitutde, by using the appropriate-targeting power.

Brad

 

[ForeverSlayer]

...

You can CHOOSE which power to use on a target. So you can CHOOSE to target the Brute's Reflex or Will, rather than their Fortitutde, by using the appropriate-targeting power.

Brad

Ahhhh okay, I understand now.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

...

You can CHOOSE which power to use on a target. So you can CHOOSE to target the Brute's Reflex or Will, rather than their Fortitutde, by using the appropriate-targeting power.

Brad

from my experance, I had a PC wizard with the foe stone... it was awsome.

I even had a player in the game who when the wizard used the stone would guess (becuse he felt the stone was a wast of resources since the wizard made it) and had a good 80%+ accuracy with guessing without the item...

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I even had a player in the game who when the wizard used the stone would guess (becuse he felt the stone was a wast of resources since the wizard made it) and had a good 80%+ accuracy with guessing without the item...

You can usually guess based on their behavior or DM description, too, presuming that the DM doesn't completely lie to you about that.

A sorcerer I played for a while, I made sure to take (Lightning-Admixed) Chaos Bolt, since that was vs. Will, and that gave me a bit more flexibility. Sure, I used my (Lightning-Admixed) Acid Orb most of the time anyway, but it was nice knowing I could target something's Will if I needed to, and what the hell is resistant to both Psychic and Lightning, anyway?

Brad