Vampire: the Masquerade - New York by Night OOC Thread

[reapersaurus]

Now that the possibility of combat is passed,

Catulle - could you do me a favor (if/when you get a chance) and describe how a likely combat scene would have occured then between Max and Nik?

Initiative would have been rolled, right?
Then someone attacks first - if Nik, he'd use the shotgun (Dex+Firearms, any successes at Difficulty 6 (average of 4 or 5) are added to the 8 damage from the shotgun, and can be soaked by Max's Stamina+Fortitude (he has 2 Stamina+armor?))

And that's if Nik only using 1 shot - the shotgun can fire up to 3 a round, and he can handle the penalties fine.
I think Max'd be taking a lot of lethal damage, wouldn't he?

So he needs to spend blood to not be incapacitated?

Max can attack with claws? Would they do STR+1 lethal damage?
No, claws are only for Vicissitude and Protean.... so he could punch, or bite, or something.
And Nik would probably Dodge in addition to attacking, so he'd have a penalty of 2 dice on the shot(s), 3 dice on the Dodge, right?
If Max hits, it's (I'll assume) STR +1 lethal, in addition to his successes on DEX+Brawl maybe, so avg of 3 damage vs. Nik's soak of 2+3 Kevlar armor = 5 --> maybe 1 damage on avg gets thru?

This is modified by Nik's Dodging, and/or Max's Celerity of 2 and Potence of 1 adding to the mix.

But once Nik touches Max with Thaumaturgy level 2 power, isn't the fight over?
Max loses so much blood virtually guaranteed (10 dice, difficulty of 5, avg of 5 successes, Max must spend 5 blood points to fuel his physical powers AND must resist Frenzy now with difficulty of + 5), that he'll Frenzy and be a clumsy fighter.

What I don't know is exactly what happens when Nik shoots him again, making Max (for sure) incapacitated if the first blast(s) didn't.
Doesn't a vamp pretty much HAVE to heal himself with blood if that happens?
And doesn't that take like a full round?
And he won't have any blood left then.... so what happens then?

Thx for the walk-thru, and hopefully this helps other people with the combat system.

 

[Catulle]

Now that the possibility of combat is passed,

You'll get yours... just you wait
On to the example (bear with me; this could take a while) -

Stage One: Initiative
- Roll Initiaive (d10+dex+wit). Max rolls and adds 6, while Nikolai rolls and adds 9 (his dex is boosted to 7 with blood IIRC). Both subtract one for their Kevlar... Results are Max 13, Nikolai 16.
- Everyone declares their actions. We'll keep simple for now; Nikolai's going to blast Max with the shotgun, Max is going to wrestle the gun away from the Tremere. Because of the initiative, Nikolai will take his action first.
- Declare multiple actions, discipline activation and willpower expenditure. Sticking with the 'simple' plan, Max will activate Celerity by spending a blood point (it'll be 'on' next round). On his part, Nikolai will spend blood to increase his strength (he wants to hang on to his gun!). He'll spend one point (as he now thinks he'll want to use Thaumaturgy next round and doesn't want to risk a frenzy himself just yet). With these adjustments, Max's blood pool is 8, Nikolai's is 6.

Stage Two: Attack
- Nikolai with the shotgun... dex/firearms yields 9 dice (8 dice post-armour penalty), rolled at difficulty 4 for point blank (note that Max could now abort his action to a dodge by rolling willpower at dificulty 6). The bones come up 10,10,8,6,5,5,3,1 (lightning reflexes won't reroll 10s here) = 5 successes.

Stage Three: Resolution
- A shotgun does 8 base damage; 4 successes from the attack are added as damage dice; 12 damage dice against difficulty 6 come up 9,8,8,7,7,6,6,5,3,2,2,1 = 6 damage.
- Max rolls soak; stamina of 2 plus 3 for his kevlar vest; 5 dice, also at difficulty 6 come up 9,7,5,3,3 = 2 soak successes.
- 5 total damage is inflicted, though because it's from a gun, immortal lords of the night like Max (yeah, right!) halve it and then round down (if applicable); 2 health levels.

We then run through stages 2 and 3 for every action in the turn. Though, that said, we shoul give Max a frenzy test for having been physically provoked (diff 8, due to his Brujah clan flaw) - self control 4 gets 10,8,7,4 = 2 successes - good for 2 turns (this and next) before he frenzies.

Stage Two: Attack
- Max's disarm; dex/brawl at diff 7; dice pool 3 (-1 for the armour) = 2 dice, 10,4 = 1 success.

Stage Three: Resolution
- Disarming requires the standard damage check; if 'damage' exceeds the target's str, than the disarm occurs. If not, the attaker's SOL... Str 2 yields 2 dice - 6,6 plus one potence is 3 successes (enough to beat Nikolai's str of 2 (due to blood)). Bye-bye shotgun...



So he needs to spend blood to not be incapacitated?

And Nik would probably Dodge in addition to attacking, so he'd have a penalty of 2 dice on the shot(s), 3 dice on the Dodge, right?
If Max hits, it's (I'll assume) STR +1 lethal, in addition to his successes on DEX+Brawl maybe, so avg of 3 damage vs. Nik's soak of 2+3 Kevlar armor = 5 --> maybe 1 damage on avg gets thru?

This is modified by Nik's Dodging, and/or Max's Celerity of 2 and Potence of 1 adding to the mix.

But once Nik touches Max with Thaumaturgy level 2 power, isn't the fight over?
Max loses so much blood virtually guaranteed (10 dice, difficulty of 5, avg of 5 successes, Max must spend 5 blood points to fuel his physical powers AND must resist Frenzy now with difficulty of + 5), that he'll Frenzy and be a clumsy fighter.

What I don't know is exactly what happens when Nik shoots him again, making Max (for sure) incapacitated if the first blast(s) didn't.
Doesn't a vamp pretty much HAVE to heal himself with blood if that happens?
And doesn't that take like a full round?
And he won't have any blood left then.... so what happens then?



(be right back - I have to run a pack game for a couple of hours...)

 

[reapersaurus]

Catulle - when you get back from the game tonight (and if you're editing your above post), could you add in a couple things?

A shotgun is lethal damage, so it wouldn't be halved.
So that's an average of 4 let's say health levels that Max takes per shotgun blast.
Nik was going to do 2 blasts first round with the Multiple Shots maneuver (not the max of 3).
I know that would decrease the number of initial dice by 2 and secondary attack's dice by 3, but let's assume Max'd take 8 health levels of damage.

What happens then? (and that's all before Max tries to Disarm, right? So would his actions be at a -5 dice pool penalty, or would he be incapacitated, or...?)

And what happens if Nik tried to dodge Max's Disarm attempt?
This would decrease the 2 shotgun blasts by 2 more dice? Or would the Multiple Shots maneuver and the Multiple Action combine to be -3 to the first shot, -4 to the second, and -5 to the Dodge?
The dodge would get 3 or 5 dice to roll (depending on how you think the Multiple Shots & Multiple Action combine), which grants 1, 2 or 3 successes probably. That should stop the Disarm, right?

Of course, even if Nik lost the shotgun, he has the machine gun he could pull next round and empty the clip after forcing Max to use 5 blood (avg) to up his Dex.

All these rolls happen before Max's Celerity kicks in.
(I love rolling a lot, by the way - the major drawback to playing online is not being able to roll the 10 d10's I specifically got for Vampire.)

So how could Max not end up being incapacitated by the end of Nik's second actions?

 

[Catulle]

Just going to hit a few key points; more to come tonight... I'll update the IC thread then, too.

A shotgun is lethal damage, so it wouldn't be halved.

Firearms do bashing damage against vampires. The information on that's tucked away on the firearms chart and another obscure place in the book, though. Shooting for the head would cause lethal damage, but impose a +2 difficulty penalty.

What happens then? (and that's all before Max tries to Disarm, right? So would his actions be at a -5 dice pool penalty, or would he be incapacitated, or...?)

With multiple actions, everybody gets one action in descending initiative order, then everybody with actions left gets another (same order), then again and again until they've all taken their full allotment.

And what happens if Nik tried to dodge Max's Disarm attempt?

To take a dodge, you'd have to have an action available either committed to dodging (in stage one) or to abort to dodge. But yes, pretty much any attack can be dodged/parried/whatever if that action is available.

Of course, even if Nik lost the shotgun, he has the machine gun he could pull next round and empty the clip after forcing Max to use 5 blood (avg) to up his Dex.

Quite right. I can cover that in the example when I update it. The disarm action, I threw in to let you guys know about another combat option, to be honest...

Regards,

Barry

 

[reapersaurus]

Firearms do bashing damage against vampires. The information on that's tucked away on the firearms chart and another obscure place in the book, though. Shooting for the head would cause lethal damage, but impose a +2 difficulty penalty.

Wow.
I read the combat section three times, and didn't notice those 2 little blurbs.

That is stupifyingly ridiculous to not include that ruling in the section that details Lethal Damage and Bashing damage.
2 seperate areas, when they write about lethal damage, they specifically include firearms, only to contradict themselves with 2 tucked away references that violate what they write.

I truly was not aware of how clunky the combat system was in V:tM until now.
I'd read for years how people dismissed it as unworkable and limiting, with flawed structure, but I always thought it was kind of neat.
Thanks to this combat example, I finally see what they were getting at, though I always like rolling dice and working thru any combat system, so I'm not exactly a control study group.

Something else that I was not aware of until you went thru it all the way, Barry:

You do your roll (i.e. Dex+Firearms) and any successes over one apply to damage.
Uh-uh ; Now you have to roll AGAIN!
This double-decrease of damage is fundamentally silly.
It's probably this way because of the prime complaint about Vampire rules: the Difficulty Rating system.
Having only one number to work with that incredibly affects the outcome is a very limiting mechanic, statistically.

Oh, well - I guess all systems have their weakpoints.
I still love the strategy and purity of combat as a gaming challenge more than the subjectiveness and misinterpretations that are inherent in character dialogue, or decriptions of actions.
It's just refreshing after all this discussion and manipulation of word-play to actually have something that is straight-out ; something that can't be taken a different way than intended, something where everyone can have the same approach, not dependant on whether your talk-partner responds the way you'd hope, or whether the scene plays out a certain way.

Thanks a bunch for going thru the example, Barry - it was quite helpful to me.
I have no idea if it helps other players, unless they're interested in combat, but it's only a handful of posts in the big thread.

 

[Valara]

Why didn't Maxwell just use Awe? effectively stopping Nikolai from attacking, and Nik isn't old enough so for him to use willpower to resist the awe it would be going way over board on meta-game knowledge, I mean it took an elder who was 200 years old who actually had the power awhile to figure it out.

While Nik was fawning he could take one of the guns easily since Nik would want to give it to him. Max could simply pump a blood into celerity before restarting the fight. He would restart it with a point blank shotgun to the head, and use his extra action to repeat, without the halving thats too much damage for a vampire to take with so little blood. Yes Nik could repair a heck of a lot of it immediately by his increased blood spending power but according to the rolls against Max thats 12 lethat damage level, Nik at max can heal 6, leaving him with crippled damage level, no blood, and -5 penalties to all rolls only able to crawl 1 yard a turn.

EDIT: Darn these multiple user ID's

How exactly did Nik get away with carrying a shotgun, and a machine gun in public? Did he have it all hidden on him in the Cafe when he was sitting?

 

[reapersaurus]

Why didn't Maxwell just use Awe?

While Nik was fawning he could take one of the guns easily since Nik would want to give it to him. Max could simply pump a blood into celerity before restarting the fight.

How exactly did Nik get away with carrying a shotgun, and a machine gun in public? Did he have it all hidden on him in the Cafe when he was sitting?

Awe is not a combat power, AFAIK : Nik could just spend a Willpower point to resist it, as it says in the description of the Discipline. He also is a specialist in vampire powers - remember his backstory.

What does "While Nik was fawning" mean? I don't understand the reference. As for Max pumping Celerity beforehand and getting the gun away.... that is granting Max full benefits of a surprise scenario - not a even-even footing.

And Nik is still wearing his trenchcoat, and a SMG and a shotgun both can be concealed with a Trenchcoat.
I did have to check their concealabiulity ratings, though, to make sure I'd been thinking right this whole extended scene, beginning with the bum - I wouldn't want to have overlooked something that out-in-the-open.

 

[KitanaVorr]

Well - I don't believe powers are separated between combat vs non-combat.

Awe seemed to work well - it seems to take effect almost immediately. As I have had Presence used on Cate for several times already, I went ahead and looked it up.

Max could just skip awe and go right into Dread Gaze + willpower to Nik. Also he can add up his successes each turn to basically eat away Nik's willpower until he's completely subjugated without having to do anything. Of course Max will have been shot first because Nik has initiative so I don't know what that does to everything.

Also, I wasn't going to say anything earlier, but I guess since we bring up the gun subject and since it looks like it will be a big part of the game. I'd like to know how we are going to deal with the use and carrying of guns in an policed urban setting like NYC. I'm also going to assume that we want the weapons to be concealable since they've been taken to highly public areas.

A shotgun and machine gun are relatively bulky weapons and difficult to conceal. They do make concealable SMG holsters that hug the body for the covert military, and a bulky trenchcoat might conceal it, but he'd have to be really careful when sitting down or it'll stick out. Also keep his trenchcoat buttoned up as the telltale criss cross of the holster will show. This of course will make it difficult to draw the weapon quickly.

Rifle holsters are a different story altogether, they are designed (at least the ones I've seen) to be worn in the back with the rifle sticking out. That means without the holster, one hand has to be on it at all times, and you can't sit down or the rifle will be revealed. Also walking with it will make it very obvious you're holding one to any police officer (or anybody for that matter). There's a reason why rifles are not exactly the weapon of choice for NYC street toughs.

Pistols I think are the best bet as they are easy to conceal at a moment's notice, if you don't buy a huge pistol that is. They make plenty of concealable holsters for them and can be put easily under a jacket. Also they come with nifty (and highly illegal) silencers. You can of course make your own silencer.

ok end dissertation on guns, hehe.
Festy would know more than me anyway.

EDIT: Realized we were talking about shotguns. It can be a bit shorter than all out traditional rifle, but still very bulky to conceal.

 

[Shalimar]

Awe is not a combat power

Says who? It can be a very effective combat power. A hunter comes at me, avoiding my eyes so I can't dominate him, I hit him with Awe so he thinks he is my friend, he wants to make me happy, he stops attacking me. It means when I ram my potence enhanced little fist through his skull, he didn't see it coming, it is a surprise round.

BTW, there is no such thing as a combat power. There are only powers, some take longer to use, some are faster, but there is no actual set of powers listed as combat powers. Some just are effective in combat. Potence is on in all situations adding to your strength, it just so happens it adds to the damage of your attacks because of the extra strength. Celerity lets you move 2 times as fast as a human, or more, it can be used in all situations, its a handicap of the player if all they use it for is a fight.

As far as resisting the effects of Awe, well, you have to know you are under the effects, you don't just know that you are under the effects, the emotions would seem natural. There is a limit on background Reap, just as there is a limit on theory if you can't put it into practice. Nikolai does not have prescence, so he cannot fully understand it, he does not truly know it. Think about it this way. Vychtorya has the discipline at 2 or more dots so she is very much familiar with it. She was unable to realize she was being affected, and needed Carricks aid to break it. Nathan, an Elder with over 200 years of existance, years that he had to learn and familiarize himself prescence. He has it at at least 4 or more dots. It took him awhile to realize that I affected him. now flip it the other way. How long would it take a newly created neonate without the power to realize he is being affected?

What does "While Nik was fawning" mean? I don't understand the reference. As for Max pumping Celerity beforehand and getting the gun away.... that is granting Max full benefits of a surprise scenario - not a even-even footing.

Who said even footing? If he hit you with Awe, then he would be getting a surprise round. You being under the effects think he is your friend it will surprise you when he attacks, hence either a surprise round, or he is acting first and gets his actions first anyway.

 

[Festy_Dog]

Well it appears the subject of what Max is capable of in combat has come up. In my opinion it appears Reap has taken the wrong actions for him, assuming he'll just use brute force from the word 'go'. I agree with the others in the use of somewhat underhanded tactics to put him off guard, then proceeding to take the surprise actions at his disposal.

Though on the subject of firearms: "Is that a suppressor in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

The ability to conceal a shotgun, is, well, very dependant on the shotgun. Deep pockets on the inside of a trenchcoat could quite easily keep a sawn-off hidden (double barrel/lever action), but one would not take the risk of sitting down or manipulating the clothing to hug the body tighter, possibly exposing the weapon. Under no circumstances though could someone get away with carrying a full size combat shotgun on their person. (I realised I assumed it was a combat shotgun when posting for Max, and how he tried to hide it was incredibly bodgy: slinging it onto his back then covering it with his backpack).

Now onto the subject of sub-machine guns. Sub-machine guns come in a variety of sizes, the Mac-10 happens to be one of the medium size range (one of those guns that look like an Uzi) though the suppressor (if its the one I'm thinking of) would increase its length by 50% at least. There are smaller sub-machine guns, the VP70 and the P9 are just a couple of examples made by H&K (I'm a shameless H&K supporter ).