D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Subtle Spell (a simple poll)

[Maxperson]

That’s a reasonable ruling, but not the only reasonable one IMO. Certainly RAW is silent on the matter. I prefer to allow failed charm attempts to be subtle when they don’t involve material or somatic components, but I think ruling the opposite is equally well-supported.

RAW is not silent. I quoted it directly stating that a saving throw is an attempt to resist. You cannot unknowingly attempt to do something. You may be forced to make that attempt, but it's still something you will know you did, even if you aren't positive why you have to resist or who caused you to make the attempt.

 

[Charlaquin]

RAW is not silent. I quoted it directly stating that a saving throw is an attempt to resist. You cannot unknowingly attempt to do something. You may be forced to make that attempt, but it's still something you will know you did, even if you aren't positive why you have to resist or who caused you to make the attempt.

I disagree. You bolded the phrase “attempt to resist the spell” because it’s the part you choose to focus on, but one could equally choose to focus on the phrase, “you don’t normally decide to make a saving throw” if one wanted to focus on the involuntary nature of saving throws. Point being, the wording is ambiguous and there’s ample support for either interpretation. I think your reading is easily supported by RAW, as is mine. I’m not aware of what the RAI is on the matter, though I’d be open to someone quoting it if it has been commented on.

 

[Maxperson]

I disagree. You bolded the phrase “attempt to resist the spell” because it’s the part you choose to focus on, but one could equally choose to focus on the phrase, “you don’t normally decide to make a saving throw” if one wanted to focus on the involuntary nature of saving throws. Point being, the wording is ambiguous and there’s ample support for either interpretation. I think your reading is easily supported by RAW, as is mine. I’m not aware of what the RAI is on the matter, though I’d be open to someone quoting it if it has been commented on.

Decide is irrelevant. You don't normally decide because of the portion you ignored that says it's forced on you. No matter what, though, you make the attempt and attempts literally cannot be done without knowledge. You cannot attempt to cross a road without knowing you are doing so. You cannot attempt to jump over a wall without knowing you are doing so. You cannot attempt to read a book without knowing you are doing so. Attempts require knowledge.

 

[Charlaquin]

Decide is irrelevant. You don't normally decide because of the portion you ignored that says it's forced on you. No matter what, though, you make the attempt and attempts literally cannot be done without knowledge. You cannot attempt to cross a road without knowing you are doing so. You cannot attempt to jump over a wall without knowing you are doing so. You cannot attempt to read a book without knowing you are doing so. Attempts require knowledge.

Sure you can. A sleepwalking person, for example, can walk across a road, which they may or may not succeed in doing. That could quite reasonably be described as an attempt, despite not being a conscious action.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure you can. A sleepwalking person, for example, can walk across a road, which they may or may not succeed in doing. That could quite reasonably be described as an attempt, despite not being a conscious action.

No, that is not an attempt. It's just an accident or happenstance. Attempt requires intent. Look it up.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You just might not know why(scrying)

I would describe it thus: "you feel a pricking of the hairs on the back of your neck, as if someone is watching you".

But 5e completely omits any description of spell sensory effects in the rules. That falls within the role of the DM to narrate. Fairness, or lack of it, is up to the DM to provide.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Subtle spell isn’t cheese. Avoiding counterspells is literally its intended use.

Are you sure it's intended use isn't for casting while being bound and gagged?

 

[Parmandur]

Are you sure it's intended use isn't for casting while being bound and gagged?

It actually is pretty broadly useful.

 

[Quartz]

Just to keep things simple (and civil), this is just a poll about how the metamagic Subtle Spell interacts with Vecna's Dread Counterspell.

Has anyone mentioned that Subtle Spell doesn't stop the need for material components or foci? If you need them you can be seen using them in the casting of the spell.

Has anyone clarified if Dread Counterspell works against spells from items? E.g. a Ring of Spell Storing or a Ring of Three Wishes.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Has anyone mentioned that Subtle Spell doesn't stop the need for material components or foci? If you need them you can be seen using them in the casting of the spell.

I don't recall if anyone has mentioned them yet, but honestly I was focusing on spells without them for that reason.

Either way, having a focus or component pouch in your hand is all you need. If it was already there all the time, I don't think it would be much of a clue, personally. Now, if it is a cost component--maybe.

Has anyone clarified if Dread Counterspell works against spells from items? E.g. a Ring of Spell Storing or a Ring of Three Wishes.

Again, not that I recall.

IMO if an item allows you to "cast a spell", then it could be a reaction to you using the item to "cast a spell" to counter it, but I would have to review the wording to see if that would be RAW or not.