Virtuous Paladin, Divine Power Excerpt

[Leatherhead]

I think people are seriously underestimating the power of virtuous touch. Its not about giving it to others, its about using it on yourself.

You can't use it while stunned, the condition that you would want it the most on.

If it was a passive or immediate reaction power, or if it only targeted yourself then I would agree. As it stands Virtuous Touch is basically a variation of Lay On Hands: something intended to be used on other people, that can be used on the paladin as an afterthought. It is also a little bit redundant, because of Divine Mettle.

 

[WalterKovacs]

What I'm curious to know is assuming they do make a new paladin challenge that is based off of strength, are they planning to adjust the current challenge?

The current challenge is the worst of the defender's marks, even if you are a charisma based paladin.

I'm not so sure about that. While it costs a minor action to put it on and you have to 'keep it up' ... which requires as much effort as the fighter or warden needs to keep their marks up (attack or be adjacent), it requires no action to use it when triggered. You don't trigger off movement, but you don't have to be adjacent when you trigger it. Unlike with a swordmage your enemy doesn't have to hit your ally for divine challenge to work, nor do you have to hit the enemy to deal the damage, which all the other marks have to do.

It does the least damage (of the ones that do damage), but considering there are no random elements (works on hit or miss by the marked creature, and you don't have to hit either) it has a chance of doing comparable damage over time. There is also the fact that, unlike other defenders, you have your immediate action available for use of interupting attacks, magic item uses, readied actions, etc ... instead of having to use them for your mark's secondary effect.

 

[Klaus]

I disagree.

(Well, technically, I don't disagree. I agree that you find the avenger does everything you want from a paladin. )

I really like the avenger, but to me, the paladin is the embodiment of the just and virtuous (or at least zealous, depending on alignment) knight in shining armor. A lightly armored, mobile striker cannot fill that role for me.

Unfortunately, while the paladin has been one of my three favorite classes in every prior edition, I'm not entirely happy with it in 4E. My hope, however, is that the upcoming "ardent" build fixes that. From what little we've heard, it sounds like it might.

Agreed. The Avenger makes an awesome Solomon Kane-type (or maybe even a Jedi?), but the Paladin is the class to go for Sir Lancelot and his pals.

 

[Leatherhead]

I'm not so sure about that.

It dosn't have any riders, that alone makes it worse than all of the other defenders marks.

The fighter can stop an enemy from moving, the warden and the swordmage can move an enemy, or the swordmage can prevent damage. Using an attack also lets you use weapon powers or other powers and feats that trigger whenever you hit an enemy.

 

[Cadfan]

I have to disagree with that. Damage is damage is damage. If you find that your enemies are not dissuaded by -2 to their attack roll and an automatic 7+ damage, that they still attack your allies in spite of these drawbacks, and that the only way to stop them from attacking would be to flat out prevent them from being capable of moving like a fighter, or flat out negate their damage like a swordmage, then...

...just console yourself with the fact that you're apparently inflicting a -2 attack penalty to attack and an automatic 7+ damage every round at the cost of the occasional minor action and immediate interrupt.

 

[SpydersWebbing]

What everyone seems to forget is that the mark isn't the only way a defender defends. The whole class is supposed to be considered, and in this case it definitely saves the Paladin's rear end. In the end, the Paladin defends by buffing his allies and debuffing his opponents to the point of making attacks against anyone but him stupid.

Example:

Paladin hits with a power, granting temp HP to everyone (including himself), and then challenges the target. The target can attack other people, but to what point? Not only do they have temp HP, but there's someone in their face, who'll give them a flat penalty and deal them damage. Attacking anyone else is lunacy, since the paladin has it set up to where ignoring him just grants more buffs while dealing flat damage and penalties.

At least, that's how a Chaladin works. It works out rather well, and is only subpar to the fighter at the moment because the Paladin is one book behind in the amount of powers he has access to.

Judging a defender by only his mark is not the best idea in the world.

 

[Kzach]

Judging a defender by only his mark is not the best idea in the world.

You pointed out one power.

What does the paladin do for the other twenty rounds of combat?

A strength-based paladin has... extra heals. He dishes out decent damage and mitigates the extra damage he takes from not having a shield with the extra heals, but really, he's not a very good defender.

A battlerager, even with the recent nerf, is far superior in both damage and defending his allies. In fact, with the nerf, he's now BETTER than he was at defending his allies because enemies have more reason to keep hitting him.

Because so many of the paladin's class FEATURES are dependant on Charisma and Wisdom, you're gimping the character by not having a decent score in both. The straladin is further gimped because at least the Chaladin can ignore Strength, but the reverse isn't true.

Anyway, this argument has been done to death elsewhere and is probably better left to a forked thread in Rules or Houserules.

 

[Leatherhead]

Paladins almost make better leaders than they do defenders.

 

[Nymrohd]

Btw doesn't anyone have Divine Power yet?

 

[SpydersWebbing]

You pointed out one power.

What does the paladin do for the other twenty rounds of combat?

A strength-based paladin has... extra heals. He dishes out decent damage and mitigates the extra damage he takes from not having a shield with the extra heals, but really, he's not a very good defender.

A battlerager, even with the recent nerf, is far superior in both damage and defending his allies. In fact, with the nerf, he's now BETTER than he was at defending his allies because enemies have more reason to keep hitting him.

Because so many of the paladin's class FEATURES are dependant on Charisma and Wisdom, you're gimping the character by not having a decent score in both. The straladin is further gimped because at least the Chaladin can ignore Strength, but the reverse isn't true.

Anyway, this argument has been done to death elsewhere and is probably better left to a forked thread in Rules or Houserules.

While I do have a comeback you are right, this isn't the place for it. But, jsut remember that your example comes from one of the sourcebooks, not from core. I'm not saying you're wrong, I am saying that you're relying on sources that the paladin doesn't have. Yet.

I guess this amounts to a Wait-and-See.

I second the question about whether someone has Divine Power or not yet, I wanna hear everything about this book..