D&D 5E Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?

[Thunder Brother]

Not necessarily obvious to everyone.

Because it's a nonsensical choice?

 

[Parmandur]

Because it's a nonsensical choice?

Let's be real, all Feats are nonsensical choices. But some people like them, anyways.

 

[Mercurius]

A few pages into skimming this thread and I was struck by how some folks who think 6E is around the corner seem confused on a basic point: WotC has taken a very different route from previous editions, one in which the "edition treadmill" is not a factor, or at least far less of one than in every past edition, or at least since 1E.

To recap, the edition treadmill is: new edition comes out, publisher creates every possible splat as quickly as possible with increasing glut and diminishing returns until the well runneth dry, which eventually leads to a new edition.

5E is different for a few reasons. One, it is not based on churning out splats. The vast majority of books are settings and adventures. Or by my count:

3 core rulebooks
14 adventures
6 setting books
4 splats
2 "luxury" products
1 other (Acquisitions)
4 starter sets

Note also that only two of the splats are player focused - that's two in seven years! We could also count Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide as a "half-splat," but that's still 2.5 in seven years. So of 30 hardcovers, only 2 are focused on player options, and even those have other stuff.

The other reason is the minimal publishing schedule, now up to five books per year (compared to a dozen or more during 3E/4E, and as many as 70 individual products during the height of 2E!).

A third reason is a different demographic, one mostly comprised of younger generations and more casual players. Meaning, it isn't focused on the "diehard core" that make up forums like this one, and were a larger percentage of the customer base in past editions.

So when I see something like this (sorry to pick on you, Minigiant)...

All I am saying is that there is a limit of sellable content you can make if you are against both revision and major addition. That limit is coming.

...I think there is a misunderstanding going on, a confusion of the past with the present and, perhaps to some degree, what one personally wants with what is actually the case.

To put it more clearly, there is no limit to D&D stories and worlds. WotC could, in theory at least, just churn them out endlessly. But if they're going with one splat per year, and one player options book every two or three years, then the whole cycle gets stretched out to the point where edition treadmill isn't a factor in whether or not there will be a new edition.

This doesn't mean WotC will never publish a 6E (by whatever name). But I think their formula allows for a more evergreen approach, with more gradual change. What I see as more likely is that they publish revised core rulebooks in 2024, which incorporate errata and all the small to moderate changes from 10 years of the edition, and hopefully revamped classes (Ranger and Monk, in particular). Stuff like that.

But there is no limit to adventures or settings, to stories and worlds. They aren't limited by classic settings, but have dozens of Magic planes to draw from, plus potentially (hopefully) new settings.

None of this precludes expanding the game in different directions. I would guess that after 2024, we might see something different, possibly a science fiction game of some sort.

When might we see an actual new edition? Not until well after the current one declines, and to a significant degree. I think WotC realizes that, at some point, the growth will slow and stop, but I think their hope is that it settles on a high plateau. This is more possible than in previous editions, due to the lack of treadmilling.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Is it possible to be happy overall and not like everything? We are always so...polarized.

I am not a fan of floating ASI and all the stuff about races. Species. Wth you want to call it I don’t know.

but dang it if I am not excited to play a sorcerer with the transmutation meta magic? And freezing blue flame blade?

even haters gotta be honest sometimes.

so while I am stodgy and don’t like “total” freedom without DM consent, some of these options make things fresh. Which means exciting all over again...

 

[Minigiant]

If only the WotC design team was composed of creative individuals who could employ different ideas in different contexts to keep options interesting and provide new and compelling content.

I'm not doubting their ability.
I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying that if you aren't allowed to adjust or change old material, you are constrained by it and will eventually make variations of the same things with lower and lower popularity.

 

[Thunder Brother]

What I wonder with 5th edition is at what point will we start seeing noticeable product fatigue, where the number of sourcebooks in publication becomes a real, or at least perceived, barrier of entry for new players. While WotC has had a slow release schedule, their current publication strategy of combining player and DM material into a single product does lead to an issue where some people are really only getting 50% out of the book they're buying.

Just look at the new Ravenloft guide, which contains a single player-facing chapter in what is overwhelmingly a DM-facing book. Will a player really feel like they got their 30-50 dollars worth for a handful of new lineages, backgrounds, and subclasses?

Tasha's itself felt padded out in some respects, with DM tools that came across as shallow in comparison to the one's presented in Xanathar's.

Sharing books at the table and digital resources alleviates some of this, but the more expensive the hobby appears, the less likely newer players will want to jump in.

(edited for typos. I should go to bed.)

 

[Minigiant]

...I think there is a misunderstanding going on, a confusion of the past with the present and, perhaps to some degree, what one personally wants with what is actually the case.

To put it more clearly, there is no limit to D&D stories and worlds. WotC could, in theory at least, just churn them out endlessly. But if they're going with one splat per year, and one player options book every two or three years, then the whole cycle gets stretched out to the point where edition treadmill isn't a factor in whether or not there will be a new edition.

This doesn't mean WotC will never publish a 6E (by whatever name). But I think their formula allows for a more evergreen approach, with more gradual change. What I see as more likely is that they publish revised core rulebooks in 2024, which incorporate errata and all the small to moderate changes from 10 years of the edition, and hopefully revamped classes (Ranger and Monk, in particular). Stuff like that.

But there is no limit to adventures or settings, to stories and worlds. They aren't limited by classic settings, but have dozens of Magic planes to draw from, plus potentially (hopefully) new settings.

None of this precludes expanding the game in different directions. I would guess that after 2024, we might see something different, possibly a science fiction game of some sort.

When might we see an actual new edition? Not until well after the current one declines, and to a significant degree. I think WotC realizes that, at some point, the growth will slow and stop, but I think their hope is that it settles on a high plateau. This is more possible than in previous editions, due to the lack of treadmilling.

My point is that they didn't do it in Tasha's. So I have no faith in them doing it at all. When confronted with major fan open desire, they'd attempt to force solutions in the current mold (Beastmaster beasts, Sorcerer feat, new race) rather than make revisions or whole new product.

I taint the treadmill. It's how every guy with a sword has to be a fighter subclass instead of a new class or an external module. There's only so much "jam it in the existing" before you start producing weak content.

 

[Hatmatter]

A few pages into skimming this thread and I was struck by how some folks who think 6E is around the corner seem confused on a basic point: WotC has taken a very different route from previous editions, one in which the "edition treadmill" is not a factor, or at least far less of one than in every past edition, or at least since 1E.

To recap, the edition treadmill is: new edition comes out, publisher creates every possible splat as quickly as possible with increasing glut and diminishing returns until the well runneth dry, which eventually leads to a new edition.

5E is different for a few reasons. One, it is not based on churning out splats. The vast majority of books are settings and adventures. Or by my count:

3 core rulebooks
14 adventures
6 setting books
4 splats
2 "luxury" products
1 other (Acquisitions)
4 starter sets

Note also that only two of the splats are player focused - that's two in seven years! We could also count Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide as a "half-splat," but that's still 2.5 in seven years. So of 30 hardcovers, only 2 are focused on player options, and even those have other stuff.

The other reason is the minimal publishing schedule, now up to five books per year (compared to a dozen or more during 3E/4E, and as many as 70 individual products during the height of 2E!).

A third reason is a different demographic, one mostly comprised of younger generations and more casual players. Meaning, it isn't focused on the "diehard core" that make up forums like this one, and were a larger percentage of the customer base in past editions.

So when I see something like this (sorry to pick on you, Minigiant)...



...I think there is a misunderstanding going on, a confusion of the past with the present and, perhaps to some degree, what one personally wants with what is actually the case.

To put it more clearly, there is no limit to D&D stories and worlds. WotC could, in theory at least, just churn them out endlessly. But if they're going with one splat per year, and one player options book every two or three years, then the whole cycle gets stretched out to the point where edition treadmill isn't a factor in whether or not there will be a new edition.

This doesn't mean WotC will never publish a 6E (by whatever name). But I think their formula allows for a more evergreen approach, with more gradual change. What I see as more likely is that they publish revised core rulebooks in 2024, which incorporate errata and all the small to moderate changes from 10 years of the edition, and hopefully revamped classes (Ranger and Monk, in particular). Stuff like that.

But there is no limit to adventures or settings, to stories and worlds. They aren't limited by classic settings, but have dozens of Magic planes to draw from, plus potentially (hopefully) new settings.

None of this precludes expanding the game in different directions. I would guess that after 2024, we might see something different, possibly a science fiction game of some sort.

When might we see an actual new edition? Not until well after the current one declines, and to a significant degree. I think WotC realizes that, at some point, the growth will slow and stop, but I think their hope is that it settles on a high plateau. This is more possible than in previous editions, due to the lack of treadmilling.

Yes, Mercurius. This is what I was attempting to communicate as well in the previous couple pages. The Wizards design team was quite forthcoming about their different design assumptions both as D&D Next was being developed and then as 5th edition was released.

To criticize an endeavor based on assumptions that the creator(s) have consciously eschewed is a bit problematic. Of course, that does not mean that some, like Minigiant, cannot disagree with the 5th edition design assumptions. I, however, love those assumptions and think they produced not only the best version of the game, but one that is poised to continue to go forward for years to come.

 

[Mercurius]

What I wonder with 5th edition is at what point will we start seeing noticeable product fatigue, where the number of sourcebooks in publication becomes a real, or at least perceived, barrier of entry for new players. While WotC has had a slow release schedule, their current publication strategy of combining player and DM material into a single product leads to an issue where some people are really only getting 50% out of the book their buying. Just look at the new Ravenloft book, which contains a single player-facing chapter in what is overwhelmingly a DM-facing book.

Sharing books at the table and digital resources alleviates some of this, but the more expensive the hobby appears, the less likely newer players will want to jump in.

It is a valid concern, but one I think may not arise with their current approach.

Remember the "everything is core" thing in 4E? 5E is taking the opposite approach: only the core rulebooks are core; everything else is optional. And clearly it has worked out well, as it seems that every book sells very well.

That said, it would be nice if they create some kind of compilation book every so often (say, every five years) that incorporates all of the fiddly bits from adventures. Or maybe they can include the "best off" in revised core rulebooks.

 

[Oofta]

We have had double digit growth for years. Each book that's been released shows up for at least a little while as some of the best selling on Amazon for at least a short period of time.

Things like he new Ravenloft book has some cool ideas if you want to do gothic horror. Theros does ancient greek mythos, which is completely different. The approach has changed, unlike the constant churn of PHBs and player focused options and rules from previous editions groups can easily pick and choose what makes the most sense. In addition, we have tools like DndBeyond that consolidates it all into packages so players don't even care where things come from.

Yet we have the doomsayers in the sack cloth and ashes saying that the end is near. After all, one book of general player options reprinted a few options from an adventure specific book! Obviously they're running out of options instead of doing a very, very minor consolidation of player options.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe WOTC is embarrassed by the fact that they get continual growth for relatively small investment. Perhaps the most successful TTRPG ever released will start circling the drain any day now. Just like it's been predicted for the last 5 years or so.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for the next version to be released.