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D&D 5E Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?

Hussar

Legend
So basically it’s two Smurfs arguing over who is more blue.

I mean good grief- every town has wizards and clerics? That’s been default DnD since 3e.

I think it’s just more you’re noticing it now for some reason. Not sure why you didn’t see it before. You say it yourself. It’s a range from moderately high to very high magic.

That’s not really much of a range.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
So basically it’s two Smurfs arguing over who is more blue.

I mean good grief- every town has wizards and clerics? That’s been default DnD since 3e.

I think it’s just more you’re noticing it now for some reason. Not sure why you didn’t see it before. You say it yourself. It’s a range from moderately high to very high magic.

That’s not really much of a range.

Every village in D&D doesn't have high magic casters tending to their industries. By default, high level magic is only available in cities or near the residences of the extremely wealthy.

Ravnica is higher magic than base D&D.
Theros is higher magic than base D&D.
Strixhaven is higher magic than base D&D.
Dominaria is higher magic than base D&D.
Kamigawa is higher magic than base D&D.
 

Hussar

Legend
Missing the point. Base D&D is still very high magic, particularly 5e. And, when you say that every village doesn't have a high level mage - I'd point out that even baseline 3e pegged nearly every small town as having at least one 6th level caster (Whether cleric, druid, wizard or sorcerer). So, it's not like it's totally unheard of.

Complaining that something is higher than already high magic seems a bit like locking the barn door after the horse got out. 5e is, baseline, very, very high magic. Every single encounter that your PC's have will feature multiple spells being cast. Every time. It's entirely plausible to have an entire party with spells. Heck, that's not unusual at all. Swap out the traditional fighter with a paladin or ranger and the rogue with pretty much anything else, and poof, entire group of spell casters.

Any 5e game is already Potterverse, even if the wider world isn't. Count the number of spells your group casts in the next session and tell me that it isn't high magic.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Missing the point. Base D&D is still very high magic, particularly 5e. And, when you say that every village doesn't have a high level mage - I'd point out that even baseline 3e pegged nearly every small town as having at least one 6th level caster (Whether cleric, druid, wizard or sorcerer). So, it's not like it's totally unheard of.

Complaining that something is higher than already high magic seems a bit like locking the barn door after the horse got out. 5e is, baseline, very, very high magic. Every single encounter that your PC's have will feature multiple spells being cast. Every time. It's entirely plausible to have an entire party with spells. Heck, that's not unusual at all. Swap out the traditional fighter with a paladin or ranger and the rogue with pretty much anything else, and poof, entire group of spell casters.

Any 5e game is already Potterverse, even if the wider world isn't. Count the number of spells your group casts in the next session and tell me that it isn't high magic.
I'm not denying that D&D is high magic or D&D PCs encounter high magic.

My point is MTG is higher magic than D&D and if you make MTG the baseline, most of D&D's no full casters have to become way more magical. Most major characters are full casters.

Strixhaven has 2 warriors and both are magical spirits. That isn't D&D.

Magic the Gathering is ALL about the magic. The non-magical take a backseat. Only when the setting has lower tones like Innistrad or Kamigawa do you see the non-magical in prominent roles. And even then every orc and every goblin scout group in a cave has a host of casters chucking burning hands, lightning bolts, heals, and teleports out for them.

D&D isn't Potterverse. MTG is. Everyone isn't a wizard in D&D. Fighters and rogues and Barbarians and monks are viable PCs. Ogres, orcs, giants, bandits, and minotaurs are threats unbuffed.
 

Horacio

LostInBrittany
Supporter
As someone who didn't turn to 5E until five years after it was released (literally didn't even look at it for those first five years), all this talk of 5.5E or 6E is disconcerting. Give me my five years of futzing with the current rules first! :ROFLMAO:
Wait, wait, I know I have been absent here longtime... Would you be, by chance, the storyhour author formerly known as Nemmerle?
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm not denying that D&D is high magic or D&D PCs encounter high magic.

My point is MTG is higher magic than D&D and if you make MTG the baseline, most of D&D's no full casters have to become way more magical. Most major characters are full casters.

Strixhaven has 2 warriors and both are magical spirits. That isn't D&D.

Magic the Gathering is ALL about the magic. The non-magical take a backseat. Only when the setting has lower tones like Innistrad or Kamigawa do you see the non-magical in prominent roles. And even then every orc and every goblin scout group in a cave has a host of casters chucking burning hands, lightning bolts, heals, and teleports out for them.

D&D isn't Potterverse. MTG is. Everyone isn't a wizard in D&D. Fighters and rogues and Barbarians and monks are viable PCs. Ogres, orcs, giants, bandits, and minotaurs are threats unbuffed.
And yet, barbarians are pretty much magical right from the get go - even the PHB barbarian can fly and talk to the animals. Granted, the other one is more strictly non-magical, but, then again, I've never seen one played. Of the fighters and rogues, a third of the subclasses are full on magic using.

Like I said, there's what 3 strictly non-magic using classes out of 33 in the PHB? Not exactly setting the bar for lower magic games.

I guess I'm just not seeing the big difference here. When 90% of the classes in D&D are straight up magic using, a setting that's 100% magic users isn't really a stretch.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
And yet, barbarians are pretty much magical right from the get go - even the PHB barbarian can fly and talk to the animals. Granted, the other one is more strictly non-magical, but, then again, I've never seen one played. Of the fighters and rogues, a third of the subclasses are full on magic using.

Like I said, there's what 3 strictly non-magic using classes out of 33 in the PHB? Not exactly setting the bar for lower magic games.

I guess I'm just not seeing the big difference here. When 90% of the classes in D&D are straight up magic using, a setting that's 100% magic users isn't really a stretch.
But that's my gripe with WOTC.

They used to make non-magical classes, subclasses, and prestige/paragon/epic classes. They were non magical fighters, rogues, rangers, scholars, brutes, craftsmen, tinkerers, and barbarians. WOTC doesn't do it anymore. They took the easy route and are just adding spells and magic to everything.

They don't anymore. And it's to the point that people like can't even see the expansion into the non-magical anymore.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
And yet, barbarians are pretty much magical right from the get go - even the PHB barbarian can fly and talk to the animals. Granted, the other one is more strictly non-magical, but, then again, I've never seen one played. Of the fighters and rogues, a third of the subclasses are full on magic using.

Like I said, there's what 3 strictly non-magic using classes out of 33 in the PHB? Not exactly setting the bar for lower magic games.

I guess I'm just not seeing the big difference here. When 90% of the classes in D&D are straight up magic using, a setting that's 100% magic users isn't really a stretch.
and yet they thought it would be a good idea to design the system math for the assumption of no magic items no feats.
 

Doc_Klueless

Doors and Corners
and yet they thought it would be a good idea to design the system math for the assumption of no magic items no feats.
Strangely, I feel it was a good idea as well. But I understand how that might not be to your liking.

EDIT: I should elaborate as that came across unnecessarily snarky. I like the idea that I don't have to add on magic items or feats to keep up with the maths. I also CAN add on magic items and feats without messing up the maths. This gives me a fairly wide latitude when it comes to adventure building and game world modifications.

I can see, however, that some may like a more focused construction that takes into account and assumes the need and inclusion of magic items and/or feats. For those people who 5e doesn't live up to, I feel a bit bad.
 
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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Strangely, I feel it was a good idea as well. But I understand how that might not be to your liking.

EDIT: I should elaborate as that came across unnecessarily snarky. I like the idea that I don't have to add on magic items or feats to keep up with the maths. I also CAN add on magic items and feats without messing up the maths. This gives me a fairly wide latitude when it comes to adventure building and game world modifications.

I can see, however, that some may like a more focused construction that takes into account and assumes the need and inclusion of magic items and/or feats. For those people who 5e doesn't live up to, I feel a bit bad.
There is a difference between someone not wanting magic items and feats in their game bedding to scale back challenges or accept thst some things are too tough at a given level because they wanted to disallow them vrs someone who wants to use them exceeding the system math and breaking things in difficult to correct ways like casters being pegged at a bar that assumes martials wont have access to magic items.
 

Horacio

LostInBrittany
Supporter
Indeed I am! And there is even a spiffy cleaned up full version of the entire story hour in PDF form available in my old portal thread AND I recently revived my 90s style D&D zines in a series called HOW IT RUN IT.

Nice to "see" you again, compadre!

Going to grab those PDFs now, I see some reading evenings in my near future...

Re-reading the story hour, that will give me some almost twenty years old souvenirs.

Really nice to see you here, compadre! So you're DMing 5e now? Are you doing a story hour or of it? I began a 5e campaign during lockdown last year, with my old mattress from high school, almost 25 years after, and we have been playing weekly since then.

Sorry for the thread hijacking, people, it has been more than 15 years since I last met Nemmerle here!!!
 
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Hatmatter

Laws of Mordenkainen, Elminster, & Fistandantilus
Going to grab those PDFs now, I see some reading evenings in my near future...

Re-reading the story hour, that will give me some almost twenty years old souvenirs.

Really nice to see you here, compadre! So you're DMing 5e now? Are you doing a story hour or of it? I began a 5e campaign during lockdown last year, with my old mattress from high school, almost 25 years after, and we have been playing weekly since then.

Sorry for the thread hijacking, people, it has been more than 15 years since I last met Nemmerle here!!!
My friend, this thread needs some good will big time...big time. Please continue to "hijack" it with more of the same!
 

el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
Going to grab those PDFs now, I see some reading evenings in my near future...

Re-reading the story hour, that will give me some almost twenty years old souvenirs.

Really nice to see you here, compadre! So you're DMing 5e now? Are you doing a story hour or of it? I began a 5e campaign during lockdown last year, with my old mattress from high school, almost 25 years after, and we have been playing weekly since then.

Sorry for the thread hijacking, people, it has been more than 15 years since I last met Nemmerle here!!!

We can move this convo to DMs - but be sure to grab the "Complete" PDF - since it has extra material like DM notes, maps, stat blocks, props, etc. . .

Note: I used two different meanings of "DM" in this post :ROFLMAO:
 

Hussar

Legend
But that's my gripe with WOTC.

They used to make non-magical classes, subclasses, and prestige/paragon/epic classes. They were non magical fighters, rogues, rangers, scholars, brutes, craftsmen, tinkerers, and barbarians. WOTC doesn't do it anymore. They took the easy route and are just adding spells and magic to everything.

They don't anymore. And it's to the point that people like can't even see the expansion into the non-magical anymore.
Oh, now this I agree with.

I just disagree with your timeline. It's been this way since 5e was released. 5e was always super high magic right out of the gate. To the point where it took multiple supplements to even make a dent in the imbalance. And it wasn't much of a dent at all. We're still at the 80% magical classes level we were at 5e's release.

For me, it's hilarious. One of the biggest gripes I saw about 4e was how they turned every class into a caster, when that was totally untrue. Now, 80% of the classes are magical and most of those are outright spell casters, and everyone thinks that's great!!! :lol:

AFAIC, the ship sailed years ago on trying to make 5e less caster heavy.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Oh, now this I agree with.

I just disagree with your timeline. It's been this way since 5e was released. 5e was always super high magic right out of the gate. To the point where it took multiple supplements to even make a dent in the imbalance. And it wasn't much of a dent at all. We're still at the 80% magical classes level we were at 5e's release.

For me, it's hilarious. One of the biggest gripes I saw about 4e was how they turned every class into a caster, when that was totally untrue. Now, 80% of the classes are magical and most of those are outright spell casters, and everyone thinks that's great!!! :lol:

AFAIC, the ship sailed years ago on trying to make 5e less caster heavy.

Nah. Base D&D is high magic. Early 5e was high magic but it still had many elements lower on the supernatural scale. Volo's was still a bit representative of the martial and the skillled.

But now... 5e is at the point where in Tasha's is just "give everybody spells.". 4e had a lot of magic users but it never forgot the martials like 5e has.

That's why a give a couple more years before a drop off. Because more "fighters with spells", "rogues with spells", "barbarians with another element" and a stack of new spells won't sell as well the 10th time.
 

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