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D&D 5E Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?


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Marandahir

Crown-Forester
So some thoughts on current subclasses who could be 6e themes with multiple optional class requirements. I'm going to loop them by current class and then list possible classes for each; if I don't list something it's because I think it's really a class-specific theme (or true subclass):
  • Artificer
    • Artillerist -> Artificer or Ranger
    • Battle Smith -> Artificer or Fighter
    • Forge Adept -> Artificer, Cleric, or Fighter (merge with Forge Domain?)
  • Barbarian
    • Battlerager -> Barbarian or Fighter
    • Ancestral Guardian -> Barbarian or Ranger
    • Zealot -> Barbarian or Paladin
    • Beast -> Barbarian or Druid
    • Wild Magic -> Barbarian or Sorcerer (LIKE IT ALREADY IS, NOMINALLY)
  • Bard
    • Swords -> Bard or Fighter
    • Whispers -> Bard or Rogue
    • Creation -> Artificer or Bard
    • Spirits -> Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Warlock (combine with Grave Domain)
    • Lorehold -> See UA
    • Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add Artificer
  • Cleric
    • This is one where I don't think the subclasses work for any other class. I think you'd need a complete restructuring of the Cleric, and I'm not sure that's helpful for the Cleric (Domains are a wonderful idea for Clerics).
    • I do think that we currently have War and Order Domains that are Paladin-lite, Arcana Domain that is like a Mystic Theurge, and Nature Domain which is like a Druid-lite. There might be some room to allow Clerics to take themes working with some of those other classes instead of having a built in subclasses, but I do like the elegance of the current system for the Cleric specifically.
    • Note that if I list Cleric anywhere it's assuming this concept.
    • Some options though:
      • Knowledge Domain -> Bard, Cleric, or Wizard
      • Death Domain -> Cleric, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Wizard (combine with The Undead Patron and School of Necromancy)
      • Arcana Domain -> Cleric or Wizard
      • Forge Domain -> Artificer, Cleric, or Fighter (merge with Forge Adept)
      • Grave Domain -> Bard, Cleric, or Druid (combine with College of Spirits)
      • Twilight Domain -> Cleric or Druid
      • Peace Domain -> Bard or Cleric
  • Druid
    • Dreams -> Bard, Cleric, or Druid
    • Shepherd -> Druid or Ranger
    • Spores -> Druid, Sorcerer, or Warlock
    • Stars -> Druid or Sorcerer (remember 4e Cosmic Sorcerer?)
    • Prismari -> See UA
    • Witherbloom -> See UA
  • Fighter
    • Eldritch Knight -> Artificer or Fighter
    • Battle Master -> Fighter, Monk, Paladin, or Ranger (replaces Kensei and also replaces Martial Superiority feats and fighting styles)
    • Purple Dragon Knight -> Fighter or Paladin (merge with Oath of the Crown)
    • Arcane Archer -> Artificer, Fighter, or Ranger
    • Cavalier -> Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger
    • Samurai -> Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Paladin
    • Echo Knight -> Fighter or Ranger
    • Rune Knight -> Artificer, Fighter, or Sorcerer
    • Psi Warrior -> Fighter, Paladin, or Warlock (merge with GOO Bladelock)
  • Monk
    • Four Elements -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer
    • Shadow -> Monk or Rogue (merge with Assassin)
    • Long Death -> Monk or Warlock
    • Sun Soul -> Monk, Paladin, or Sorcerer (merge with Divine Soul)
    • Kensei -> Merge with Battle Master and superiority dice feats; Fighter, Monk Paladin, or Ranger
    • Astral Self -> Monk, Sorcerer, or Wizard
    • Ascendant Dragon -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer (merge with Draconic Bloodline)
  • Paladin
    • The Ancients -> Barbarian, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, or Warlock
      • Probably split into multiple concepts, a more Fey and a more Primal version
    • Crown -> Fighter or Paladin (merge with Purple Dragon Knight)
    • Glory -> Barbarian, Fighter, or Paladin
    • Watchers -> Artificer, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, or Wizard (think Eldeen Reaches Orc Druid guardians of the natural world, or else Mordenkainen (Greyhawk) or Karla (Lodoss)'s guardianship of the Grey Middle against the tipping of any scales.
  • Ranger
    • Beast Master -> Druid or Ranger
    • Gloom Stalker -> Ranger, Rogue, or Warlock
    • Monster Slayer -> Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger
    • Fey Wanderer -> Bard or Ranger
    • Swarmkeeper -> Druid or Ranger
  • Rogue
    • Arcane Trickster -> Artificer, Bard, or Rogue
    • Assassin -> Monk or Rogue (merge with Way of Shadow)
    • Swashbuckler -> Bard, Fighter, or Rogue
    • Scout -> Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue
    • Phantom -> Rogue or Warlock
    • Soulknife -> Monk, Paladin or Rogue
  • Sorcerer
    • Draconic Bloodline -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer (merge with Ascendant Dragon)
    • Wild Magic -> Barbarian or Sorcerer (merge with Path of Wild Magic)
    • Divine Soul -> Monk, Paladin, or Sorcerer (merge with Way of the Sun Soul)
    • Shadow Magic -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Aberrant Mind -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (merge with the Great Old One; essentially becomes the Psion of 6e, choose your key ability score based on the class you graft it to)
    • Clockwork Soul -> Artificer or Sorcerer
    • Prismari -> See UA
    • Quandrix -> See UA
  • Warlock
    • This works a bit differently… The Pacts matter just as much as the Patrons.
    • The Fiend
      • Blade Pact -> Paladin or Warlock (merge with Conquest or Oathbreaker and maybe with the Hexblade?)
    • The Archfey
      • Blade Pact -> Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger or Warlock (merge with oath of the Ancients?)
    • The Great Old One
      • Blade Pact -> Fighter, Paladin, or Warlock (merge with Psi Warrior)
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (merge with Aberrant Mind to get Psion theme for 6e)
    • The Undying -> Druid, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, or Warlock (shift to be a bit more about immortality and imperishable spirit and combine the Lich stuff with The Undead patron)
      • Blade Pact -> Paladin, Sorcerer, or Warlock -> Make this the Templar from Dark Sun?
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Druid, Monk, Sorcerer, or Warlock -> This can be a theme for non Templars?
    • The Celestial
      • Blade -> Delete, superfluous with Paladins and Clerics and open theme subclasses
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Cleric or Warlock
    • The Hexblade -> Paladin or Warlock
      • Remove Chains/Tome/Talisman pact and make this just Blade Pact
      • Potentially combine with Fiend Blade Pact and then with Oath of Conquest and/or Oathbreaker Paladin
    • The Genie -> Warlock or Wizard (Sha'ir were Wizards not Warlocks in early editions)
    • The Fathomless
      • Blade -> Ranger, Rogue, or Warlock (I'm a pirate arrr)
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman-> Cleric, Druid, or Warlock (Clerics DESPERATELY need a Water domain that's not combining Poseidon with Zeus; Druids could draw on the depths too)
    • The Undead
      • Blade -> Paladin or Warlock (Combine with Hexblade and Fiend Bladelock and possibly Oath of Conquest/Oathbreaker)
      • Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with Death Domain, Circle of Spores, and School of Necromancy)
    • Lorehold -> See UA
    • Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add in Artificer
    • Witherbloom -> See UA
  • Wizard
    • Evocation -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Transmutation -> Bard, Druid, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Conjuration -> Druid, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Divination -> Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard
    • Enchantment -> Bard, Druid, or Wizard
    • Illusion -> Bard, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Necromancy -> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with Death Domain, Circle of Spores MAYBE, and The Undead)
    • Bladesinging -> Bard or Wizard (bladeSONG)
    • War Magic -> Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard
    • Order of Scribes -> Artificer, Bard, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with College of Lore and Tome Pact Warlocks and most importantly with Silverquill; honestly, Silverquill is like a do-over of Tasha's Scribe by giving it to Bards and Warlocks too, and also combine in the old Archivist Artificer UA)
    • Lorehold -> See UA
    • Prismari -> See UA
    • Quandrix -> See UA
    • Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add in Artificer
 




Hussar

Legend
Because subclasses are no longer for one class, probably call everything "archetype".
I love how a single UA, not even official material, makes people think that this is the new normal. There's no guarantee that the classes in the Strixhaven book will even make it into that book, let alone in the form that they are showing. And, there's no guarantee that any subsequent books will use these mechanics. They might or they might not.

Note, this is different from the lineage changes since that wasn't a mechanics change per se, but, a reaction to other issues outside of the rules of the game.

People tend to forget things like the fact that we've had, what, three different stabs at psionics without a single psionics class becoming official. The UA ranger has never made it into print. Heck, a large swath of stuff in UA doesn't make it into print.

But, yeah, "subclasses are no longer for one class" because of a setting specific book that hasn't even been released yet. :lol:
 

Yaarel

Legend
I love how a single UA, not even official material, makes people think that this is the new normal. There's no guarantee that the classes in the Strixhaven book will even make it into that book, let alone in the form that they are showing. And, there's no guarantee that any subsequent books will use these mechanics. They might or they might not.

Note, this is different from the lineage changes since that wasn't a mechanics change per se, but, a reaction to other issues outside of the rules of the game.

People tend to forget things like the fact that we've had, what, three different stabs at psionics without a single psionics class becoming official. The UA ranger has never made it into print. Heck, a large swath of stuff in UA doesn't make it into print.

But, yeah, "subclasses are no longer for one class" because of a setting specific book that hasn't even been released yet. :lol:
The book of Strixhaven has already been announced. I assume the five college archetypes will make it into that book.

I hope there is enough time to clean up some of the archetype features.

For example, @Leatherhead makes good points about some archetypes being better than other archetypes.

It is important that the flavor is fun, the mechanics matches the flavor, and the mechanics are potent and balance with the mechanics of other archetypes.
 
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Parmandur

Legend
I love how a single UA, not even official material, makes people think that this is the new normal. There's no guarantee that the classes in the Strixhaven book will even make it into that book, let alone in the form that they are showing. And, there's no guarantee that any subsequent books will use these mechanics. They might or they might not.

Note, this is different from the lineage changes since that wasn't a mechanics change per se, but, a reaction to other issues outside of the rules of the game.

People tend to forget things like the fact that we've had, what, three different stabs at psionics without a single psionics class becoming official. The UA ranger has never made it into print. Heck, a large swath of stuff in UA doesn't make it into print.

But, yeah, "subclasses are no longer for one class" because of a setting specific book that hasn't even been released yet. :lol:
It's a genuinely exciting experiment, and it has tremendous potential if it takes off.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester
I love how a single UA, not even official material, makes people think that this is the new normal. There's no guarantee that the classes in the Strixhaven book will even make it into that book, let alone in the form that they are showing. And, there's no guarantee that any subsequent books will use these mechanics. They might or they might not.

Note, this is different from the lineage changes since that wasn't a mechanics change per se, but, a reaction to other issues outside of the rules of the game.

People tend to forget things like the fact that we've had, what, three different stabs at psionics without a single psionics class becoming official. The UA ranger has never made it into print. Heck, a large swath of stuff in UA doesn't make it into print.

But, yeah, "subclasses are no longer for one class" because of a setting specific book that hasn't even been released yet. :lol:
Truth. The thing is, the UA opens the floodgates. If there’s massive rejection of this it won’t happen, but they’re openly testing it. I’m reminded of when they tried out adding Prestige Classes with the Rune Scribe. If I recall correctly, people felt strongly that they didn’t want to give up their class features to access the concept, so it would be better incorporated into a subclass or multiple subclasses (hence we now have various Artificers, Rune Knight Fighters, and Order of Scribe Wizards).

What I took away from that experiment was that people would be happier if the Rune Scribe was like a floating subclass, but that the mechanics of class feature progression was the sticking point for that. This seems to be a partial way around it, and anecdotally I’m hearing a lot of positive feedback.
 

Source? I've repeatedly suggested this should be done but it definitely was the case in any figures I saw, hence the suggestion. If they've changed that, great, but without a source I 100% do not believe it.

Haven't seen them, don't know.

Source. This definitely was not the case in any of the earlier data dumps. If this is correct there was a more recent one I missed with a new strategy.
I have a question. Do we have any idea what percentage of players actually use D&D Beyond at all? Most of my players don't. If a lot of people are using the actual books instead, wouldn't the data they have be less useful in determining what people want out of D&D?
 

Of the ten or so official fighter subclasses, like 5 of them have magic, and the 1 of those 5 appeared in core, and 1 of them is in the Wildemount book (how official you want to count this is up to the reader). So, there are still more non-magic fighter subclasses than magic ones. More and more magical? That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? They started out with 1 or 2 magical fighters - Eldritch Knight and Arcane archer out of like 6 fighter subclasses and have added like 2 more since then.

Of the eight rogue subclasses, 3 are distinctly magical.

Barbarians are a bit of an odd duck since they've been a magical fighter class since day 1.

But, again, you keep making this argument that you're needs are not being addressed. The goalposts have shifted rather a lot from your original wish list of armor as DR etc. New weapons? Good grief, there's a shopping list of that stuff on DM's Guild. More than you could possible want.

Again, WotC is being absolutely clear here. They will not produce stuff that makes other books harder to use. Full stop. A book of weapons impacts monsters. It means that every adventure module going forward has to include some of these new weapons. If flails ignore shields, for example, it means that every monster that uses a flail suddenly nerfs my sword and board fighter - a nerf that is most certainly not needed. And, since only a tiny handful of monsters actually use a shield, this will hurt the players far more than grant them any advantage. Players get REALLY shirty when you start having stuff that impacts their careful build creation. I remember using Dragon Heist and doing a Fall Season adventure which meant that outdoor ranged attacks were at disadvantage due to the winds. The players of the archer character lost his naughty word on me for that. Didn't matter that it would only impact a couple of encounters. He went completely orangutan poop.

And you want to add a shopping list of weapon effects that need to be included in every subsequent publication going forward, plus will impact every previous publication? Yeah, good luck with that.
Whiny players have ruined a lot of game design over the years.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I have a question. Do we have any idea what percentage of players actually use D&D Beyond at all? Most of my players don't. If a lot of people are using the actual books instead, wouldn't the data they have be less useful in determining what people want out of D&D?
We don't, but WotC has some idea. It is millions upon millions of users.
 

Hussar

Legend
And, frankly, why would someone using D&D Beyond be particularly different from someone using books? When you have a base that large for looking at trends, the extremes get blurred pretty hard. It's not like you get access to every book just because you have a D&D Beyond account. You still need to buy the digital versions of the books you want to use, just like the PnP player.

While I accept that the D&D Beyond stats aren't exactly definitive, they're probably the closest thing we'll ever see to larger trends that aren't simply confirmation bias. If there was a huge push for feats, wouldn't that show up on the millions and millions of played character sheets? And, by "played" I mean that the character sheet has been leveled up at least once. If there was a huge push for more magical fighter classes, wouldn't that be reflected by the subclass choices? When Champion Fighters are the top choice, hands down over any other option, even if they aren't the overall majority choice, doesn't that mean that that's what most people are playing?
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
On thing you can notice about the progression of 5e is the use of old settings and MTG settings. And there is an increasing of the magic level of D&D due to it.

MTG has a higher magic level than standard D&D and classic settings have mostly seen their magic emphasized. Soon the 5e standard will look like Eberron. Tasha's Cauldron is filled to the trim with blatantly magical and high fantastical stuff. Now we are getting Strixhaven which is all casters all the time.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
If there was a huge push for feats, wouldn't that show up on the millions and millions of played character sheets? And, by "played" I mean that the character sheet has been leveled up at least once.
Most characters that level up at least once (1->2) are ineligible for feats, so that's padding the denominator.

Stick with 4+ or, as others have mentioned, 8+, as many using pointbuy are highly motivated to take main stat ASIs first.

Of course, there are far fewer characters at that level, but treating them all the same (thus, removing exposure when we already have a well defined way of measuring it) is either naive or disingenuous.

Non- Variant humans or Custom Lineage characters of levels 1, 2, and 3 are not eligible for feats; so they should be thrown out.
 

Hussar

Legend
sigh

You don't think that people might have already thought of that and accounted for it? When the dev's flat out say that feats aren't used by the majority of players, maybe, just maybe, they looked at basic things like that?

I mean, heck, are the majority of characters on D&D Beyond 1-3rd level? The level 1 characters would automatically be excluded since they talk about characters that have been leveled up at least once. If only there was some sort of reporting going on for the level spread of characters on D&D Beyond. Oh, right, there is:

1623274214772.png


So, yeah, we'd need to discount about 1/3 of the character sheets from our calculations. My point is, @ph0rk, the information is there, and the work has already been done.

What evidence do you bring to the table that there is this huge plurality of feat users in the game? Are there some groups that use feats? Yup. That's evidenced by the fact that we have gotten new feats. But a majority? That would mean that the majority of groups are barely getting served. I see no evidence of that.
 

Hussar

Legend
On thing you can notice about the progression of 5e is the use of old settings and MTG settings. And there is an increasing of the magic level of D&D due to it.

MTG has a higher magic level than standard D&D and classic settings have mostly seen their magic emphasized. Soon the 5e standard will look like Eberron. Tasha's Cauldron is filled to the trim with blatantly magical and high fantastical stuff. Now we are getting Strixhaven which is all casters all the time.
Bwuh?

5e has ALWAYS been super high magic. The PHB has what, 6 out of 33 classes that are non-magical? And that same 4:1 ratio is still true in the game 10 years later. Nothing has changed. 5e has always been Potterverse. The 5e standard was Eberron right from the get go.

I would point out though, that Strixhaven is the first of, what, 5 5e settings - FR, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Wildemount, Eberron that is leaning that hard on being that high of a high magic setting. So, it's not like more traditional settings haven't been done in 5e.

I guess my point is, 1 supplement and 1 setting is not a trend. Come back when it's the next three supplements and we'll talk.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Bwuh?

5e has ALWAYS been super high magic. The PHB has what, 6 out of 33 classes that are non-magical? And that same 4:1 ratio is still true in the game 10 years later. Nothing has changed. 5e has always been Potterverse. The 5e standard was Eberron right from the get go.
Nah. The base rules of 5e is high magic. However it only really comes in at the start of Tier 2 and is all over post level 10. The street level isn't very magical nor is the noble and paragon side neccesarily.

Magic the Gathering settings are magic at the lowest of the low. Street thugs have magic weapons. Every farming community has a contingency of clerics, druids, and mages boosting crops. Most knights and cavaliers ride magic mounts.

5e wasnt Potterverse. PCs don't every have functioning magic markets by default.. It is becoming Potterverse. You just aren't noticing it


I would point out though, that Strixhaven is the first of, what, 5 5e settings - FR, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Wildemount, Eberron that is leaning that hard on being that high of a high magic setting. So, it's not like more traditional settings haven't been done in 5e.

I guess my point is, 1 supplement and 1 setting is not a trend. Come back when it's the next three supplements and we'll talk.
Eberron is blatantly high frequency magic.

Ravenloft has an emphasis on magic gifts, the magic of Darklords and the Mist, and new magical horrors.

Theros is a high magic mythic setting.

FR and Wildemount are magic Christmas tree settings and WOTC goes out it's way to promote their magic sides.

And now Strixhaven, a magic school setting.

The only setting that doesn't use magic as it's selling point in 5e is Greyhawk. And it lacks a setting book.

The 5e PHB, MM, and DMG are moderately high magic.

The 5e setting books and rulesbook are range from high magic to super high magic. With the earlier books being more subtle and the later books more overt
 

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