D&D 5E Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?

[Hussar]

So basically it’s two Smurfs arguing over who is more blue.

I mean good grief- every town has wizards and clerics? That’s been default DnD since 3e.

I think it’s just more you’re noticing it now for some reason. Not sure why you didn’t see it before. You say it yourself. It’s a range from moderately high to very high magic.

That’s not really much of a range.

 

[Minigiant]

So basically it’s two Smurfs arguing over who is more blue.

I mean good grief- every town has wizards and clerics? That’s been default DnD since 3e.

I think it’s just more you’re noticing it now for some reason. Not sure why you didn’t see it before. You say it yourself. It’s a range from moderately high to very high magic.

That’s not really much of a range.

Every village in D&D doesn't have high magic casters tending to their industries. By default, high level magic is only available in cities or near the residences of the extremely wealthy.

Ravnica is higher magic than base D&D.
Theros is higher magic than base D&D.
Strixhaven is higher magic than base D&D.
Dominaria is higher magic than base D&D.
Kamigawa is higher magic than base D&D.

 

[Hussar]

Missing the point. Base D&D is still very high magic, particularly 5e. And, when you say that every village doesn't have a high level mage - I'd point out that even baseline 3e pegged nearly every small town as having at least one 6th level caster (Whether cleric, druid, wizard or sorcerer). So, it's not like it's totally unheard of.

Complaining that something is higher than already high magic seems a bit like locking the barn door after the horse got out. 5e is, baseline, very, very high magic. Every single encounter that your PC's have will feature multiple spells being cast. Every time. It's entirely plausible to have an entire party with spells. Heck, that's not unusual at all. Swap out the traditional fighter with a paladin or ranger and the rogue with pretty much anything else, and poof, entire group of spell casters.

Any 5e game is already Potterverse, even if the wider world isn't. Count the number of spells your group casts in the next session and tell me that it isn't high magic.

 

[Minigiant]

Missing the point. Base D&D is still very high magic, particularly 5e. And, when you say that every village doesn't have a high level mage - I'd point out that even baseline 3e pegged nearly every small town as having at least one 6th level caster (Whether cleric, druid, wizard or sorcerer). So, it's not like it's totally unheard of.

Complaining that something is higher than already high magic seems a bit like locking the barn door after the horse got out. 5e is, baseline, very, very high magic. Every single encounter that your PC's have will feature multiple spells being cast. Every time. It's entirely plausible to have an entire party with spells. Heck, that's not unusual at all. Swap out the traditional fighter with a paladin or ranger and the rogue with pretty much anything else, and poof, entire group of spell casters.

Any 5e game is already Potterverse, even if the wider world isn't. Count the number of spells your group casts in the next session and tell me that it isn't high magic.

I'm not denying that D&D is high magic or D&D PCs encounter high magic.

My point is MTG is higher magic than D&D and if you make MTG the baseline, most of D&D's no full casters have to become way more magical. Most major characters are full casters.

Strixhaven has 2 warriors and both are magical spirits. That isn't D&D.

Magic the Gathering is ALL about the magic. The non-magical take a backseat. Only when the setting has lower tones like Innistrad or Kamigawa do you see the non-magical in prominent roles. And even then every orc and every goblin scout group in a cave has a host of casters chucking burning hands, lightning bolts, heals, and teleports out for them.

D&D isn't Potterverse. MTG is. Everyone isn't a wizard in D&D. Fighters and rogues and Barbarians and monks are viable PCs. Ogres, orcs, giants, bandits, and minotaurs are threats unbuffed.

 

[Horacio]

As someone who didn't turn to 5E until five years after it was released (literally didn't even look at it for those first five years), all this talk of 5.5E or 6E is disconcerting. Give me my five years of futzing with the current rules first!

Wait, wait, I know I have been absent here longtime... Would you be, by chance, the storyhour author formerly known as Nemmerle?

 

[Hussar]

I'm not denying that D&D is high magic or D&D PCs encounter high magic.

My point is MTG is higher magic than D&D and if you make MTG the baseline, most of D&D's no full casters have to become way more magical. Most major characters are full casters.

Strixhaven has 2 warriors and both are magical spirits. That isn't D&D.

Magic the Gathering is ALL about the magic. The non-magical take a backseat. Only when the setting has lower tones like Innistrad or Kamigawa do you see the non-magical in prominent roles. And even then every orc and every goblin scout group in a cave has a host of casters chucking burning hands, lightning bolts, heals, and teleports out for them.

D&D isn't Potterverse. MTG is. Everyone isn't a wizard in D&D. Fighters and rogues and Barbarians and monks are viable PCs. Ogres, orcs, giants, bandits, and minotaurs are threats unbuffed.

And yet, barbarians are pretty much magical right from the get go - even the PHB barbarian can fly and talk to the animals. Granted, the other one is more strictly non-magical, but, then again, I've never seen one played. Of the fighters and rogues, a third of the subclasses are full on magic using.

Like I said, there's what 3 strictly non-magic using classes out of 33 in the PHB? Not exactly setting the bar for lower magic games.

I guess I'm just not seeing the big difference here. When 90% of the classes in D&D are straight up magic using, a setting that's 100% magic users isn't really a stretch.

 

[Minigiant]

And yet, barbarians are pretty much magical right from the get go - even the PHB barbarian can fly and talk to the animals. Granted, the other one is more strictly non-magical, but, then again, I've never seen one played. Of the fighters and rogues, a third of the subclasses are full on magic using.

Like I said, there's what 3 strictly non-magic using classes out of 33 in the PHB? Not exactly setting the bar for lower magic games.

I guess I'm just not seeing the big difference here. When 90% of the classes in D&D are straight up magic using, a setting that's 100% magic users isn't really a stretch.

But that's my gripe with WOTC.

They used to make non-magical classes, subclasses, and prestige/paragon/epic classes. They were non magical fighters, rogues, rangers, scholars, brutes, craftsmen, tinkerers, and barbarians. WOTC doesn't do it anymore. They took the easy route and are just adding spells and magic to everything.

They don't anymore. And it's to the point that people like can't even see the expansion into the non-magical anymore.

 

[tetrasodium]

And yet, barbarians are pretty much magical right from the get go - even the PHB barbarian can fly and talk to the animals. Granted, the other one is more strictly non-magical, but, then again, I've never seen one played. Of the fighters and rogues, a third of the subclasses are full on magic using.

Like I said, there's what 3 strictly non-magic using classes out of 33 in the PHB? Not exactly setting the bar for lower magic games.

I guess I'm just not seeing the big difference here. When 90% of the classes in D&D are straight up magic using, a setting that's 100% magic users isn't really a stretch.

and yet they thought it would be a good idea to design the system math for the assumption of no magic items no feats.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

and yet they thought it would be a good idea to design the system math for the assumption of no magic items no feats.

Strangely, I feel it was a good idea as well. But I understand how that might not be to your liking.

EDIT: I should elaborate as that came across unnecessarily snarky. I like the idea that I don't have to add on magic items or feats to keep up with the maths. I also CAN add on magic items and feats without messing up the maths. This gives me a fairly wide latitude when it comes to adventure building and game world modifications.

I can see, however, that some may like a more focused construction that takes into account and assumes the need and inclusion of magic items and/or feats. For those people who 5e doesn't live up to, I feel a bit bad.

 

[el-remmen]

Wait, wait, I know I have been absent here longtime... Would you be, by chance, the storyhour author formerly known as Nemmerle?

Indeed I am! And there is even a spiffy cleaned up full version of the entire story hour in PDF form available in my old portal thread AND I recently revived my 90s style D&D zines in a series called HOW IT RUN IT.

Nice to "see" you again, compadre!