Vorpal and Sharpness reborn

[AGGEMAM]

Very nice!

I'll stick to my version, though.

For those who don't know my version, well that's to bad aint it.

 

[Al]

Sharpness seems about right on +3. Compared to Elemental Burst weapons, it seem slightly stronger, but no so strong as double burst weapons (which would be +4). +3 sounds right.

The new Vorpal, however, I think is probably a tad too powerful even at +5.
Compare Old Vorpal:
Instantly kill anything with one head not immune to criticial hits.

Now, the New Vorpal's main stumbling block is the Fort save and the affecting creatures immune to crits.
With 8d8 damage +2 (as has to be a +1 weapon), the save DC is 38. That's pretty tough unless you're a top-level dwarven barbarian. Now let's extend to a worse case scenario: a Vorpal Greatsword wielder. 4d6 normal damage, 12d6 vorpal damage, and say a good +20 from strength, weapon spec and enhancement bonus (already doubled, assumes 20str, weapon spec and +1 weapon). DC is now 76- virtually impossible short of save smackdowns or natural 20s. AND it affects creatures immune to critical hits and those without heads.

Thus, the new enhancement has made vorpal weapons more deadly. I like the flavour text, but this has removed the only way to survive a Vorpal Weapon- being immune to crits and not having a head. This is not a +5 weapon enhancement; this is artifact territory.

 

[kreynolds]

This is not a +5 weapon enhancement; this is artifact territory.

I have to disagree. Why? Read above. (I'm lazy and don't wanna retype everything)

Let me try and put this into perspective for you.

Original Vorpal: Roll crit and severe head of creature (constructs aren't killed, but lose head if they have one; undead aren't killed, but lose heads if they have one; Vampires actually have a head, and rely upon it, so what happens when their head is cut off, which is arguably an unlife-threatening event for them; you crit a second time on a golem, which already is missing it's head, what happens now? Does your vorpal sword get mystically pulled towards where it's head USED to be?)

New Vorpal: You hit stuff and it hurts a whole lot. Pretty simple huh? And that was the point - Less of a hassle and less needlessly wasted time, for me, the DM.

When I look at the old vorpal - get hit and die; and I look at my vorpal - get hit and die/get hurt, everything kinda falls into perspective for me.

 

[Tarin Greenflame]

Well, like I said, if you feel this version's enhancement is too powerful, restrict the death save to only creatures that rely on heads, and to those who are only 1 size category larger than the wielder of the vorpal weapon, unless special cases permit for creatures larger than one size category over the wielder.

Or, you could restrict sharpness and vorpal like you do with the current vorpal: the enhancement only takes effect on natural crits, not crits with bonuses to crits factored in (keen, improved crit, etc.). At least, I read SOMEWHERE that the current vorpal requires natural crits to work

The current vorpal is powerful enough, since it can technically lop off the heads of giants, dragons, etc. on a natural crit. This version weakens it slightly (by giving SOME chance at survival) but makes it a little more broad in scope, with dishing out dmg to things immune to crits and such. So what.

I am guessing, however, that the force damage from sharpness and vorpal does not have str bonus/enhancement bonus factored in, etc., as that WOULD make it too powerful to be +5. With the force damage just being damage die however, I think it is fine as +5.

And yes you could compare flaming or flaming burst weapons and their enhancement modifiers and such, but just remember, those weapons do something on every hit. These two only make your crits nasty rather than making every hit hurt more.

 

[kreynolds]

At least, I read SOMEWHERE that the current vorpal requires natural crits to work

I can clear this up for you. Here's the Sage response on this:

Howdy Skip,

I have a question regarding burst enhancements, vorpal enhancements, etc. These enhancements activate when you score a critical hit. My question is this: Will the Improved Critical feat or the Keen weapon enhancement, which both increase the threat range of the weapon, also apply to the burst/vorpal enhancement?

Yes (but if you want to bar that in your game you won't get any grief from me).

There seem to be two sides to this argument.
1) The burst/vorpal enhancements use the end-result threat range of the weapon (i.e. they take into account Improved Critical or Keen).

This one's technically correct.

2) The burst/vorpal enhancements use the original unmodified threat range of the weapon.

This one probably is less problematical in the long run.

Skip Williams
RPG R&D

My group and I use the full modified threat range in our games.

And yes you could compare flaming or flaming burst weapons and their enhancement modifiers and such, but just remember, those weapons do something on every hit. These two only make your crits nasty rather than making every hit hurt more.

Officially, Flaming Burst weapons deal 1d10 (x2), 2d10 (x3), or 3d10 (x4) points of fire damage on a critical hit. The burst enhancements do not deal flaming damage on a standard hit. That's why I compared them.

The current vorpal is powerful enough, since it can technically lop off the heads of giants, dragons, etc. on a natural crit. This version weakens it slightly (by giving SOME chance at survival) but makes it a little more broad in scope, with dishing out dmg to things immune to crits and such. So what.

My thoughts exactly. So you dig it?

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Honestly, I think sharpness is a worthless ability when listed next to vorpal. For an additional +1, you get all of what sharpness does, plus and addition x2 damage, plus a chance to kill your targert.

Even assuming a d6 weapon with x2 crit, isn't that 8d6 points of damage? Fortitude save 28 on average and this does not include strength modifications....seems very powerful to me, even for a +5 enhancment.

 

[kreynolds]

Honestly, I think sharpness is a worthless ability when listed next to vorpal. For an additional +1, you get all of what sharpness does, plus and addition x2 damage, plus a chance to kill your targert.

Vorpal does not bypass hardess, but Sharpness does. Also, a few before you have already suggested that Sharpness should be +3. Sounds pretty reasonable, but for some reason (probably the sheer amount of damage), I still lean towards +4.

Even assuming a d6 weapon with x2 crit, isn't that 8d6 points of damage? Fortitude save 28 on average and this does not include strength modifications....seems very powerful to me, even for a +5 enhancment.

Seems pretty powerful? Then you must really hate the original vorpal. Get hit with a crit and die, no save, nothing, notta, zip, zilch.

 

[Shirt Guy John]

Did I miss a point or something?

Uh.... Aren't you completely changing Vorpal? Shouldn't you give it a new name?

Vorpal removes heads, and is a nonsense word from that one poem.

You're using it to just mean "super space cleaving death blade thingy"

On second thought, I don't even know what I'm trying to say here.

But anyways, you should have the requirement of Plane Shift or something Plane-related with these things.

Personally, I think Vorpal works fine as is. It does what it's supposed to do- lop off heads. Whats wrong with that?

I think Cloudgatherer seems to make the point of why change it, it does the same thing? What changes? Creatures who used to be immune now get the e cut out of them.

Are these things even balanced? How easy can they be broken?
Consider a Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10. On one attack it's 2d6 + 30 for a single attack when raging/frenzied. With this it would deal what? 12d6 + 180 with each crit? that's just scARY

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Did I miss a point or something?

Consider a Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10. On one attack it's 2d6 + 30 for a single attack when raging/frenzied. With this it would deal what? 12d6 + 180 with each crit? that's just scARY

And the original simply killed you outright. What's your point?

 

[Tarin Greenflame]

Officially, Flaming Burst weapons deal 1d10 (x2), 2d10 (x3), or 3d10 (x4) points of fire damage on a critical hit. The burst enhancements do not deal flaming damage on a standard hit. That's why I compared them.

Incorrect. Burst weapons deal their normal additional d6 damage per hit, with extra d10 damage on a critical. Read flaming, icy, or shocking burst weapons on the first sentence of their description.

"A x burst weapon functions as a y weapon that also explodes with z upon striking a succesful critical hit."
x being flaming, icy, or shocking
y being flaming, frost, or shock
z being flame, frost, or electricity

They function as their lower enhancement weapon types normally, with the extra damage on a critical. If you run your burst weapons as only doing extra damage of any sort upon a critical hit, you should only make them +1 enhancements, as that severely hampers their effectiveness imo.