VP/WP for d20 M?

[shadowlight]

Are there any VP/WP systems out there for d20 Modern? Basically I want to use d20 Modern as-is, but with VP/WP instead of hp.

Thanks!

 

[Ron]

Are there any VP/WP systems out there for d20 Modern? Basically I want to use d20 Modern as-is, but with VP/WP instead of hp.

Thanks!

Just use it. You can easily take the rules from Star Wars or Spycraft and apply it over d20 Modern. Quite frankly, I think that the d20M's massive damage rule has an edge over the VP/WP systems.

 

[takyris]

There's nothing official, but there are about 200 different Homebrewed systems out there, based on the Star Wars mechanic. They differ in whether you increase weapon damage, what happens when you critical, whether Massive Damage stays in there, and so forth.

One ugly house rule I'll never use but love imagining is that you have a Fort save DC 15 whenever they do more damage than the target's Con, a Ref 15 save whenever they do more damage than the target's Dex, and a Will 15 save whenever they do more damage than the target's Wis. A Fort Failure does WP damage that directly bypasses your VP, a Ref failure takes away all of your VP in a single hit, and a Will failure causes you to become shaken for the next minute.

 

[Plane Sailing]

That brings back to mind the original traveller damage rules - where you took damage against your strength, dexterity or constitution (basically). Interesting in that it allowed for built-in degradation of different attributes.

 

[ledded]

There are a few variations, and there are a few not based on SW that arent specifically termed Vitality/Wound points.

Here is what we use in our game:

Wound Points (WP) is the amount of actual physical damage you can take. Vitality Points (VP) is your ability to avoid damage through experience, luck, or being quick enough to not get hit badly; it is the bruises, scrapes, pulled muscles, and exhaustion that comes from being in an intense situation.

You get as many WP as your con score. Con 12 = 12 WP. You get VP just like regular hit points, constitution modifier applies. A first level strong hero with a con of 14 is going to start with 14 WP, and 10 VP.

'Ordinaries' either dont get VP or get a very limited amount if they have no heroic classes.

Damage goes to VP first, then goes to WP. A critical hit goes directly to WP, bypassing VP altogether, but does not multiply.

If you take any amount of WP damage, you must make a save DC of 5 (or 10, for grittier option) + <total amount of WP damage taken in that round>. Failure means unconsciousness for 1d4 rounds. Having taken any WP damage, you are fatigued (you cannot run or charge, and take a -2 penalty to str and dex).

'Non-lethal' damage goes to VP first, but never actually causes WP damage. You are still fatigued, and do have to make the saves as if you took WP damage to avoid being knocked out.

You can take the toughness feat to gain an additional +3 WP. Tough hero talents applying to hit points apply to WP. Treat injury can allow you to regain WP faster for continuous care (up to 3 per day, I think).

You gain your level in VP every hour of rest/light activity. You gain 1 WP of healing back every day you receive 8 hours of rest. Damage reduction applies only to WP, because when you take VP in effect you didnt really get 'hit'. We allow armors to give damage reduction based on material (the basic system is that light armor gives DR1, medium DR2, heavy DR3).

Add one die of damage to all ballistic weapons/firearms (a 9mm does 3d6 instead of 2d6) which is how SW is modelled, and is the advice given in Ultra Modern Firearms. Some argue that you should apply this to melee or non-firearm weapons also, feel free to do so if it floats your boat... to us it works great like it is.

It's not quite as gritty as the Massive Damage rules, but we like it because it is a bit more easier to determine if someone is really hurt or just merely winded (more cinematic) while still being fairly gritty (a crit from a 10ga shotgun -3d10- or assault rifle has a good chance of killing anyone outright). Because damage for firearms is increased, people still dont try to go toe-to-toe but it's not quite as unforgiving as the massive damage system. Double-taps and Bursts from larger caliber weapons are very scary indeed (burst from a .50 cal = 5d12 damage).

We also use several feats from the UMF and other sources that allow increase in save DC for autofire so that it is a bit more scary at higher level encounters.

Our low-magic spell system is a custom job by our GM, with lower spells costing you VP, higher ones costing WP, and the highest costing ability point damage, or a combination of the former.

 

[barsoomcore]

Here's a query about VP/WP systems:

It seems to me that this system increases PC risk-of-death as PC levels rise, assuming that certain other d20 standards are kept (in particular, criticals applying directly to WP and higher average damage at higher levels).

Let me explain:

VP increase with level. WP do not. Criticals apply damage directly to WP. A first-level threat is unlikely to do enough damage on a critical hit to take out all of a character's WP in one shot. At higher levels, though, doesn't this become trivial for the sorts of threats characters are facing? So a high-level character in this sort of system faces much higher risk of immediate death than does a low-level character, assuming they're confronting threats of an appropriate level.

Is my assessment missing something or is this part of the design of these systems?

 

[ledded]

Here's a query about VP/WP systems:

It seems to me that this system increases PC risk-of-death as PC levels rise, assuming that certain other d20 standards are kept (in particular, criticals applying directly to WP and higher average damage at higher levels).

Let me explain:

VP increase with level. WP do not. Criticals apply damage directly to WP. A first-level threat is unlikely to do enough damage on a critical hit to take out all of a character's WP in one shot. At higher levels, though, doesn't this become trivial for the sorts of threats characters are facing? So a high-level character in this sort of system faces much higher risk of immediate death than does a low-level character, assuming they're confronting threats of an appropriate level.

Is my assessment missing something or is this part of the design of these systems?

Sort of. It's true that a crit with a firearm can kill you pretty quickly at 1st or 15th level, and at higher levels you have access to higher-damage weapons, but we've found that players take steps to increase their ability to take WP damage if they plan on mixing it up in combat much, either through getting better body armor, the toughness feat, etc. For us it has stayed a bit more 'in character' than some of the Massive Damage campaigns I've seen were everyone tweaks their character to be able to make the save. It also serves to make you careful even when you get to higher levels because that lucky shot can still stop your clock.

Basically, we felt that a shot to the chest with 7.62mm could kill a 1st level guy just as easy as a 15th, but experience should make you harder to hit by then. Luck, however, can always turn against you.

At 2nd level, we had a PC die from a .444 rifle shot in the first climactic combat. She was a 1st level smart/1st level fast, and the first shot she took reduced her to -8, and she bled out before anyone could help her. We recently had our 4th level tough/1st level Fast (with the whole string of dodge feats) damage sponge charge a high-level bad guy who had a semi-auto 10 gauge and take 2 quick double-taps that very nearly ended his career for good, and he has since changed his opinion of charging men with big guns.

It's true that it *could* get a little trivial as people get higher level because of the infrequency of crit's, but we tend to play our characters a little more 'realisitc', i.e. they are real people you might meet on the street, not super-duper Delta commandos. We focus a lot on skills and realism in our PC's (we have a PI, an Evangelist, an Archeology student, a Chemisty teacher, a garage band guitarist, and a comic book store owner as PC's). However, the GM is very good at scaling the encounters as we get higher so it's not a constant stream of the same kind of stuff. However, a lot of modern games I've read about or seen get trivial pretty quick because people toss in some tough/fast and a feat or two and presto they can make most of the static saves that come their way from autofire, explosions, etc. With the VP/WP system, even the tough hero will *always* be afraid of taking that burst from the assault rifle, as he should be.

 

[Luddite]

Here's a query about VP/WP systems:

It seems to me that this system increases PC risk-of-death as PC levels rise, assuming that certain other d20 standards are kept (in particular, criticals applying directly to WP and higher average damage at higher levels).

Let me explain:

VP increase with level. WP do not. Criticals apply damage directly to WP. A first-level threat is unlikely to do enough damage on a critical hit to take out all of a character's WP in one shot. At higher levels, though, doesn't this become trivial for the sorts of threats characters are facing? So a high-level character in this sort of system faces much higher risk of immediate death than does a low-level character, assuming they're confronting threats of an appropriate level.

Is my assessment missing something or is this part of the design of these systems?

I can only speak for Spycraft. But you don't realy do more damage per attack as you go up in level. A 9mm pistol does the same damage per single shot reguardless of character's level. A higher level character can have more attacks, some type of special attack that does extra damage (Double Tap), or even a better chance to critical. All of these are not assumed in higher level characters. The only thing that goes up with level is your BAB.

Only those characters focusing on combat will have the potential to do great amounts of damage with a single 9mm pistol.

-The Luddite

 

[barsoomcore]

So it sounds like the fix is that in systems using VP/WP, average damage does not increase with level. You definitely wouldn't want to just drop such a system into standard D&D, for example, where not only do high-level characters do more damage, but they also increase their chance of getting a critical hit.

That's what I figured, really.

I'm just playing in a game that uses VP/WP but seems to be following a D&D-type of damage progression, and it's a little worrisome.

Thanks for the explanations!

 

[Desdichado]

It's not from guns that you have to worry, it's for when you go up against that dragon at higher level that does mondo damage.

Personally, I'm a bit indifferent towards WP/VP. I'd just as soon use HP and a massive damage threshhold equal to the characters CON score. Effectively it works the same as WP/VP with the exception of healing speed (assuming little to no magical healing.) However, with beefed up Treat Injury the way d20 Modern does it, I don't think that this causes any undue concern.

So, I'm not against VP/WP, I just don't see how they really add anything to the mix that d20 Modern's interpretation of HP doesn't already do quite well.