D&D 5E Wandering Monsters: Morons and Salads

[Dausuul]

Modrons and Slaadi are the topic of this week's Wandering Monsters.

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4wand/20130416

What do you think?

I'm strongly of the opinion that they should just stick with the Planescape versions. These monsters were described comprehensively in one of the most loved campaign settings ever. What's the problem, berk?

Well, for one thing, not everybody loves Planescape. I'm not at all fond of it, myself.

I've always thought modrons as written were very silly--they come across as a joke monster to me. If I were redesigning them to fit my tastes, they'd lose the limbs and funny faces. A modron would simply be a dimly glowing, levitating polyhedron, manipulating its surroundings through telekinesis. Less clockwork construct, more abstract idealized entity of law.

For the slaad, I'd say they have the right basic idea, but work on making them more individual and unpredictable. Random traits determined by die roll is good. I'm also dubious about making them aberrations; I think they're trying much too hard to cram things into a set of overly narrow categories.

Of course, I've never used modrons and rarely used slaad in my campaigns, so I might not be the ideal audience. I guess it's a question of whether they want to cater to old-school Planescape fans, or try to draw in people who see things differently. Much as I'd like them to custom-tailor D&DN to suit my every whim, the first approach is probably the more sensible business decision.

 

[Kinak]

As a huge Planescape fan, I've used both of these several times. I've even used Slaad a couple times in non-planar situations.

I'm not a fan of them cramming everything into their new categories. Slaad can have more body horror, but not because you need a label for them.

Slaad
I'm actually a fan of the higher body horror Slaad. If they decide to divorce Slaad from their planar origin and use them as aberrations, I think they'd do well there. We'd need a new race of pure chaos, but I think they could come up with more convincing exemplars of chaos than the Slaad.

The problem comes in if they try to half-way everything. Xenomorphs aren't exemplars of chaos. You can have chaos body horror, certainly, but it's about mutation more than making things like yourself.

Modrons
Modrons just need better hooks. As written, they don't really have an agenda. Do they want to spread Law? Do they serve any summoner who can prove their legal authority? Do they replace humanoid settlements with perfect cities populated by clockwork automatons?

Even if they're just the eyes and ears of Primus, keeping that agenda between Marches gives them some role. They can pay for information, give out quests, or be the targets of diplomacy or raids to get what the party needs to know.

Regardless of whether people think they're silly, there's just very little reason to use Modrons as it stands now. If they get some strong hooks, then it starts to matter whether people snicker when they see them.

I've always thought modrons as written were very silly--they come across as a joke monster to me. If I were redesigning them to fit my tastes, they'd lose the limbs and funny faces. A modron would simply be a dimly glowing, levitating polyhedron, manipulating its surroundings through telekinesis. Less clockwork construct, more abstract idealized entity of law.

I could dig it.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[SkidAce]

Well, for one thing, not everybody loves Planescape. I'm not at all fond of it, myself.

I've always thought modrons as written were very silly--they come across as a joke monster to me. If I were redesigning them to fit my tastes, they'd lose the limbs and funny faces. A modron would simply be a dimly glowing, levitating polyhedron, manipulating its surroundings through telekinesis. Less clockwork construct, more abstract idealized entity of law.

For the slaad, I'd say they have the right basic idea, but work on making them more individual and unpredictable. Random traits determined by die roll is good. I'm also dubious about making them aberrations; I think they're trying much too hard to cram things into a set of overly narrow categories.

Of course, I've never used modrons and rarely used slaad in my campaigns, so I might not be the ideal audience. I guess it's a question of whether they want to cater to old-school Planescape fans, or try to draw in people who see things differently. Much as I'd like them to custom-tailor D&DN to suit my every whim, the first approach is probably the more sensible business decision.

I think we've discussed this in another thread. I have the same glowing construct theme, with psionics.

 

[Celebrim]

I agree that Slaads need a greater element of chaos and for thier behavior to not confuse chaos with evil. They should show bouts of kindness intermixed with cruelty

The capacity of the Slaad for both good and evil is one of the more interesting things about them for me. You can have them be both villains and heroes.

I remember something the would help explain the oddness of orderly creatures of chaos and that is that the order as such is artifically imposed by the Slaad Lords who kill any mutantions of Slaad they see as a potiential threat to thier power or that they simply don't like.

But this would make the Slaad Lords simply brutal tyrants. In my conception, the Slaad Lords are killing off other Slaad not because they are threats to their power (per se), but conversely because the Slaad are not a threat to their power but to their individual identity. The Slaad Lords - Ygorl particularly - have declared 'Stop' for the good of the universe. The Slaad Lords know that if the Slaad aren't stopped, they'll destroy everything (the Slaad Lords included) and this is not a desirable result. So, for the sake of themselves (and incidently everyone else), the Slaad are 'Stopped'. This means that the Slaad frog orthodoxy is utlimately an expression of, "Harm no one; Do what you please." The Slaad have 'Stopped' themselves so as to avoid being evil.

This way only the stronest and most cunning mutations make it to evolve into a new Slaad Lord instead of the multiverse overflowing with Slaad Lords and dangerous new Slaad races.

The problem is the opposite of what you describe. It's the strongest and most cunning mutations that have to be stopped. The problem with mindless Chaos is if that it is allowed free reign, it ultimately makes everything undifferentiated. But undifferentiated is ultimately uniform. The Slaad are trying to avoid evolving into something which would destroy their identity. The real threat to the Slaad is the evolution of The Slaad. Utlimately, the Slaad are in terror of merging back into Primal Chaos - the Primal Slaad of All Colors and None, the one that devours all. The 'Stop Cult' - the Death Slaad - is designed to insure that no Slaad is allowed to evolve into IT. The greatest secret of the Slaad race is that they were once all one - the first being that ever exist - the great god Chaos himself. At the moment of creation, the Primal God Chaos awoke but his members - his cells if you would - acting on their impulse went into rebellion. Chaos was shattered from the inside, his blood spilling out and becoming the Red Slaad, his greater organs becoming the Slaad Lords. The Slaad Lords never work together for fear of merging back into the whole. They, together with the Executioners and the Death Slaad, hunt the White Slaad and the Black Slaad to prevent the reunification of the race into the primal god Chaos which would destroy everything.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I should also say that I believe that chaos is best represented by having at least TWO distinct chaos races. The Slaad embody chaos more destructive tendencies. I think that they should be balanced by a second incarnate race that embodies its more creative tendencies - a sybarite artisan race that farts rainbows and pukes flowers.

Githzerai?

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Slaad always suffered from being not random and individually varied enough in appearance. And different colours/ranks makes them too orderly at times. While it's fine if there's a bit of frog theme, there needs to be be more random features like a third arm on one, eyes all-over another one and tentacles for feet for another one, all of the same rank. There also needs to be more shown, in how they aren't evil. Depicting them as roughly CE and always hostile, has always being the lazy of depicting them. There needs to be something more like the interacting with a Slaadi skill challenge that appeared in one the 4e books.

Modrons are good as they were in Planescape, I'm very much in favour of the clockwork modron, over anything else.

 

[Celebrim]

Githzerai?

I've never liked the Gith, don't believe that they should be associated with Limbo (I'd place them on the Astral Sea), and in any event in no conception have they ever been truly native to the plane. The closest I can think of in D&D to what I would want is the Quarks, the fairy like shapechangers that can become familiars to CN wizards, but that's not perfect either. A better usage of them would make the Quarks the lesser sorts of examples of their race the way that Imps or Quasits are of theirs.

 

[Dausuul]

Modrons just need better hooks. As written, they don't really have an agenda. Do they want to spread Law? Do they serve any summoner who can prove their legal authority? Do they replace humanoid settlements with perfect cities populated by clockwork automatons?

Here's a proposal: Modrons are philosophers, judges, lawyers, and architects. They are not so much concerned with enforcing the law--that's what inevitables are for--as they are with understanding, applying, recording, and refining the law. Their goal is rectification: Resolve all contradictions and ambiguities, prescribe all possible responses to all possible situations, and determine once and for all the proper place and purpose of everything in the multiverse.

Modrons' primary task is to identify "essential laws." An essential law is one that the modron hierarchy has concluded is right and necessary beyond all doubt. Once a law is deemed essential, the modrons make a special record of it and create inevitables to enforce it. (There is a branch of the modron hierarchy devoted to overseeing the inevitables.)

When modrons act outside Nirvana, it's usually to gather information. They like stable nations with well-established codes of law; by observing those nations, they gain valuable insights into the nature of law itself. As such, they may intervene to prevent one of these nations from being overthrown by outside forces, so they can continue to watch it. Whether the nation is a just, enlightened realm or a brutal tyranny is irrelevant. The modrons may also intervene if they identify someone tampering with the inevitables, or to preserve an especially gifted scholar or legislator.

The "Great Modron March" is a kind of universal inspection tour. The modrons travel around all of the planes and observe the operation of law in every plane. It also serves as a final test for any new proposed essential law. If, during the march, even one case is found where a violation of the proposed law does not lead to an increase in chaos, the law is scrapped.

The problem is the opposite of what you describe. It's the strongest and most cunning mutations that have to be stopped. The problem with mindless Chaos is if that it is allowed free reign, it ultimately makes everything undifferentiated. But undifferentiated is ultimately uniform. The Slaad are trying to avoid evolving into something which would destroy their identity. The real threat to the Slaad is the evolution of The Slaad. Utlimately, the Slaad are in terror of merging back into Primal Chaos - the Primal Slaad of All Colors and None, the one that devours all. The 'Stop Cult' - the Death Slaad - is designed to insure that no Slaad is allowed to evolve into IT. The greatest secret of the Slaad race is that they were once all one - the first being that ever exist - the great god Chaos himself. At the moment of creation, the Primal God Chaos awoke but his members - his cells if you would - acting on their impulse went into rebellion. Chaos was shattered from the inside, his blood spilling out and becoming the Red Slaad, his greater organs becoming the Slaad Lords. The Slaad Lords never work together for fear of merging back into the whole. They, together with the Executioners and the Death Slaad, hunt the White Slaad and the Black Slaad to prevent the reunification of the race into the primal god Chaos which would destroy everything.

This is brilliant and I wholeheartedly endorse it. This should be the underlying concept of the slaad from now on.

 

[Kinak]

When modrons act outside Nirvana, it's usually to gather information. They like stable nations with well-established codes of law; by observing those nations, they gain valuable insights into the nature of law itself. As such, they may intervene to prevent one of these nations from being overthrown by outside forces, so they can continue to watch it. Whether the nation is a just, enlightened realm or a brutal tyranny is irrelevant. The modrons may also intervene if they identify someone tampering with the inevitables, or to preserve an especially gifted scholar or legislator.

I can go with that.

I can also see them wanting to maintain enforcement for the purposes of those studies. After all, a lot of laws are only bad because they can't be enforced properly and, if you'll have inevitables on the case, it makes sense to assume that there will be supernatural enforcement for those laws. Modrons coming in and fixating on a law, enforcing it to the hilt, could provide a range of interesting hooks.

Continuing on a similar train of thought, they'd probably be attracted to countries with weird laws. For example, plenty of countries have laws on murder, that one's probably been tested to death (if you'll excuse the pun). But a country with strange taboos, narrowly-defined castes, or laws inspired by local issues, would attract them like flies to honey.

I do still like the idea of them needing the local sovereign's permission to operate in lawful areas, though. Modrons would seem like a ruler's best friends at a glance, but be a double-edged sword in practice.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Dausuul]

I can go with that.

I can also see them wanting to maintain enforcement for the purposes of those studies. After all, a lot of laws are only bad because they can't be enforced properly and, if you'll have inevitables on the case, it makes sense to assume that there will be supernatural enforcement for those laws. Modrons coming in and fixating on a law, enforcing it to the hilt, could provide a range of interesting hooks.

Continuing on a similar train of thought, they'd probably be attracted to countries with weird laws. For example, plenty of countries have laws on murder, that one's probably been tested to death (if you'll excuse the pun). But a country with strange taboos, narrowly-defined castes, or laws inspired by local issues, would attract them like flies to honey.

I do still like the idea of them needing the local sovereign's permission to operate in lawful areas, though. Modrons would seem like a ruler's best friends at a glance, but be a double-edged sword in practice.

Great ideas here. I especially love the last bit... allowing modrons to enforce the law would be a dangerous decision. Better hope you and your friends and allies don't turn out to be violating the law in question. And you never know when the modrons will decide they've learned all they need to learn, and move on.