Wanting players to take in-game religion more seriously

[FormerlyHemlock]

Not at all. As I said, it's entirely his choice where he wants to draw his lines.

What I said is that RPing someone who is/believes in any of those things is not remotely analogous to supporting/believing them as a player--not even in the form of "lip service"--and that there is no bullying involved. The proper response, if polite discussion at the very start doesn't change the DM's mind, to choose not to play. It is not to accuse people of bullying or end friendships.

But the actual situation is that the campaign has already started, and the DM isn't happy with how the players are playing and wants to change their behavior. That's not the same as what you're describing, with the players buying into the scenario at the start of play.

I may be extra-sensitive to this scenario right now, because the last campaign I started as a player turned into exactly this by the second session in: the DM kept pressuring me to pick a goddess to worship, and every PC I had said "Nope" and tried to find a way to play anyway:

[after proto-druid decided not to worship a goddess and died] "Oh, wizards have to worship a goddess too--I guess I'll roll up a monk. [some time later] Okay, now my monk has enough XP for 2nd level, but you're telling me I can't advance as a monk unless I... pick a goddess to worship?"

It killed my interest in the campaign, and I'm just glad it didn't take more sessions for me to discover it. Imagine if I'd played for a month or two before hitting the invisible "you must worship a goddess to advance beyond this point" mark!

 

[Mouseferatu]

But the actual situation is that the campaign has already started, and the DM isn't happy with how the players are playing and wants to change their behavior. That's not the same as what you're describing, with the players buying into the scenario at the start of play.

That's unfortunate, but the answer is still the same. Talk about it like adults, and if you don't like what the DM is doing, politely walk away until the next campaign. And it certainly doesn't qualify as "bullying."

(I mean, I suppose it's possible that the specific way an individual DM might go about it could qualify as bullying. But that would be a problem with the particular people and approach, not the overall concept.)

 

[Lanliss]

But the actual situation is that the campaign has already started, and the DM isn't happy with how the players are playing and wants to change their behavior. That's not the same as what you're describing, with the players buying into the scenario at the start of play.

I may be extra-sensitive to this scenario right now, because the last campaign I started as a player turned into exactly this by the second session in: the DM kept pressuring me to pick a goddess to worship, and every PC I had said "Nope" and tried to find a way to play anyway:

[after proto-druid decided not to worship a goddess and died] "Oh, wizards have to worship a goddess too--I guess I'll roll up a monk. [some time later] Okay, now my monk has enough XP for 2nd level, but you're telling me I can't advance as a monk unless I... pick a goddess to worship?"

It killed my interest in the campaign, and I'm just glad it didn't take more sessions for me to discover it. Imagine if I'd played for a month or two before hitting the invisible "you must worship a goddess to advance beyond this point" mark!

That sounds like one of those times I have heard of where "something something can't make a bad DM good", I think.

 

[Henry]

"If you want to know more about a person, walk a mile in their shoes."

As a player, I enjoy the roleplaying opportunities involved in pretending to be someone else sometimes. Does this mean I will attempt to roleplay ANY possible character? No, because there are some types of characters (a transgender character or a rape survivor being two examples) I don't have anywhere near enough experience to do a portrayal of that chaacter justice. I have made devout characters, atheists, female characters, characters of different race, even a sociopathic character once (though I did not enjoy the Chaotic Evil Psychopath I played briefly once - I just felt too "oily" after some of the things I had him do in-game). Playing a polytheist to me is no different - I want to explore what it would be like to be a person of faith, but who "compartmentalizes" their belief. The closest thing I can come up with in modern experience would be departments in large corporations - you call Carol in HR if you need help with leave; you call Dave in I.T. When your computer is fritzed. I can't realistically know what it's REALLY like to be a polytheist - but I can attempt to explore the outlook of such a person through gaming.

Te only way to properly encourage players having their PCs take theism seriously is through (as the Happy Jack's Podcast puts it) "grownup conversations." You can do carrots or sticks all you like, but without buy-in from your players to play a more immersive style, you'll be fighting a losing game, one in which very few or no people are having fun.

 

[Henry]

That sounds like one of those times I have heard of where "something something can't make a bad DM good", I think.

Indeed, in those kinds of situations, it's time for you or even the whole group to rotate DM duties to someone else, because it goes nowhere good.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The best solution is to allow each player to define their own spiritual beliefs for their own character. If they are monothesists, fine. If they are animists, fine. If they are philosophical atheists, fine. Whatever. Just some kind of coherent world view.

If the DM wants the *players* to care about worldviews. Then the DM must integrate those worldviews that the players actually care about.

I agree with this 100%. Some people are uncomfortable with roleplaying a character with certain religious views. Refusing to accommodate that by simply *not trying to punish the PC for not being into the made up religion* is a douche move on the DM's part.

OTOH, if the DM does leave you alone about it, ya gotta leave the DM alone about it, and not be disruptive to the rest of the table over your dislike of fake polytheism, or whatever.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Damn. More than one fish took the bait.

When someone baits a hook and casts it into a thread like that, I ignore them lickity split. No muss, no fuss.

 

[intently]

Thanks to everyone with on topic suggestions

My goal is to create a campaign that everyone enjoys, and certainly not to browbeat anyone into playing "my way". I'd like a more serious game, so it sounds like I should talk to my players more directly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Arial Black]

Wow. If I ever had a DM who tried to force me to pretend to worship gods, I would no longer consider that person a friend.

Moreover, if a "god" is a terrorist or a bully, then it fails to merit "worship".

Quite the opposite. It is disgusting.

Just like in real life.

I'm amazed anybody still does. However, if I climb to the battlements and shout to the world, "Gods are not real!", will the world respond, "Oh, thanks for putting us right Oh Great One! We shall change our behaviour instantly!"?

Probably not.

 

[Arial Black]

The best solution is to allow each player to define their own spiritual beliefs for their own character. If they are monothesists, fine. If they are animists, fine. If they are philosophical atheists, fine. Whatever. Just some kind of coherent world view.

Sure. The DM didn't force them to play a cleric! They chose to play a cleric, therefore they chose to play a character that worships a particular fictional god.

(And I don't mean 'fictional' god in the way that real-life religions are deluding themselves, but that the gods in RPGs are clearly made-up for the purpose of filling a niche in our made-up fantasy worlds rather than being made-up for real life people to actually worship.)

But, whatever the players choose for their characters' religious beliefs (note the distinction between 'player' and 'character'!), the NPCs in the world are overwhelmingly likely to be religious. Why? Because unlike the real world, the made-up gods in our made-up world actually exist in-world, and go around each night smashing the windows of unbelievers!

The PCs have to navigate the various dangers of the environment, and gods and their worshippers are part of that environment.

The PCs not believing in gods is as pointless as them not believing in dragons when they are being eaten by one!