War Pick; ?d8
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ZombieRoboNinja
First Post
My assumption was that "prof: 2" was just their way of adding an attack bonus on weapons. A proficient user gets +2 to hit, or something. That would allow them to differentiate "fast, accurate" weapons from "slow, powerful" weapons: daggers, rapiers, etc. get a +hit bonus, while greatswords, etc. do more damage.
+2 to hit on a non-magic weapon sound crazy? Bear in mind that 4e fighters have the same BAB progression as 3e wizards, PLUS everybody gets scaling AC now. A healthy attack bonus built into the weapon might be a way of adjusting for that.
+2 to hit on a non-magic weapon sound crazy? Bear in mind that 4e fighters have the same BAB progression as 3e wizards, PLUS everybody gets scaling AC now. A healthy attack bonus built into the weapon might be a way of adjusting for that.
Aust Diamondew
First Post
ZombieRoboNinja may be on to something.
Currently: AC= Level Bonus+Class Bonus+Armor and Shiled +Dex (I'm assuming)
Attack= Level Bonus+Class Bonus+Str/Dex (one more assuming)
Thats one more bonus to AC than attack, meaning it could quickly out strip it. 3e 'solved' this by having no class bonus or level bonus and instead just having tons of magic items to increase AC once attack started to outstrip AC, since attack scaled with level.
4e might solve this by having a weapon proficiency bonus to attack. This would lessen the distance between a high fighter AC and a fighter's attack bonus.
Currently: AC= Level Bonus+Class Bonus+Armor and Shiled +Dex (I'm assuming)
Attack= Level Bonus+Class Bonus+Str/Dex (one more assuming)
Thats one more bonus to AC than attack, meaning it could quickly out strip it. 3e 'solved' this by having no class bonus or level bonus and instead just having tons of magic items to increase AC once attack started to outstrip AC, since attack scaled with level.
4e might solve this by having a weapon proficiency bonus to attack. This would lessen the distance between a high fighter AC and a fighter's attack bonus.
Khaim
First Post
Emirikol said:I think that would quickly get out of control..but it would be neat. It's not that way though
Common sense folks...they're going to rank weapons by complexity. Club: 1, Double weapon 4. Pick..well, we already answered that one.
No, see, that's not common sense. That's common sense plus speculation. And at this point, it's fairly baseless.
Emirikol said:
Now you're just being childish. We know there's going to be a 4e; there have been previews for months now. But all we know about weapon proficiency is that the war pick has "Proficiency 2". We don't have any information about what that means.
DreamChaser
Explorer
Emirikol said:Prof = proficiency
Prof =/ professor, profession, profanity, profuse, proforma, profane, profungus, profootball
Score = necessary rank to use the weapon
Score =/ random number, 8-ball, couple, pair, twin, gemini
Let's not be naive about how this all works shall we
jh
Naive = okay but chidish =/= okay?
Anyway, on topic:
You're first half makes sense, because there is actual mention of "Prof." but no where does the word "Score" appear. This number could represent a range, a number of slots, a multiplier, a divisor, a number of users, a number of components, or a reference (with ordinal and not primary numeric significance) about what it means to be proficient in the weapon for a fighter (like how they mentioned that spears can bypass armor bonus).
Additionally, the comment
Emirikol said:
Indicates, or strongly implies that you have been talking to someone and thus you "know" versus "theorize"; you haven't indicated anything related to the former so it must be the latter.
Please keep it polite even when someone pokes holes in your pet theory.
DC
I like the new look of the weapon presentation, and i think the prof(iciency) could be as simple as the new classifications taking the place of simple, martial and exotic (and rouge/monk/druid )
lvl 1: things a person that spent their life living in a box could use to some degree: clubs, sticks, flailing hand slaps
level 2: something a peasent should be able to use well. picks, sickles, daggers, maces etc
level 3: warrior type weapons; swords, battle axes
level 4: the weird exotic things; spiked chains, bladed pinwheels
thus rather than muck around with subjective words like "simple" and "martial" or a long list of what this character can use that leaves out some pretty obvious choices (i'm looking at you monk) they boil it down to numbers.
Category seems to me to be most importat to warriors, since WoTC claim now their powers are somewhat weapon specific, thus the category tell the warrior what category of powers (sword,axe,pick,spear) this thing falls under. so his "Pick your nose" power that functions with any pick category weapon works with warpicks, minning picks, and possibly toothpicks (although those are more likely in the javelin or spear category)
theories that prof. 2 -> -2 to attacks if not proficient or proficient users get 2d8 are not in anyway bad ideas, but fly in the face of the simplicity that the designers are TRYING (arguments of course may be made against this) to make part of the framework. I think the simple explanations will prevail in the end.
one thing that i find odd is that no "Light, one handed, two handed" claricfication is mentioned, though that might be listed elsewhere, or simply left out at this point.
lvl 1: things a person that spent their life living in a box could use to some degree: clubs, sticks, flailing hand slaps
level 2: something a peasent should be able to use well. picks, sickles, daggers, maces etc
level 3: warrior type weapons; swords, battle axes
level 4: the weird exotic things; spiked chains, bladed pinwheels
thus rather than muck around with subjective words like "simple" and "martial" or a long list of what this character can use that leaves out some pretty obvious choices (i'm looking at you monk) they boil it down to numbers.
Category seems to me to be most importat to warriors, since WoTC claim now their powers are somewhat weapon specific, thus the category tell the warrior what category of powers (sword,axe,pick,spear) this thing falls under. so his "Pick your nose" power that functions with any pick category weapon works with warpicks, minning picks, and possibly toothpicks (although those are more likely in the javelin or spear category)
theories that prof. 2 -> -2 to attacks if not proficient or proficient users get 2d8 are not in anyway bad ideas, but fly in the face of the simplicity that the designers are TRYING (arguments of course may be made against this) to make part of the framework. I think the simple explanations will prevail in the end.
one thing that i find odd is that no "Light, one handed, two handed" claricfication is mentioned, though that might be listed elsewhere, or simply left out at this point.
instead of the "prof." value being a malus to users without the proficiency, what if it was a bonus to users with it ?
We know that AC, like all defenses, will increase with level, but there are several things adding to it :
AC = 1/2 level + Dex (depending on armor) + armor + shield
To attack versus AC, you only have [ability bonus] + 1/2 level (the new base attack bonus)
Seems like there should be some kind of bonus allowing each character to be better at some forms of attacks than others.
In Star Wars Saga, each class get a static bonus (+0, +1 or +2) to each defense. In 4th edition, I exepected the same way to have classes with static bonus for their main attack type.
For exemple Fighters having a +2 bonus to melee attacks, Ranger the same with ranged attacks, wizards with their spells, and so on.
A better system yet could be that the bonus would be tied to a specific ability :
fighters getting a bonus to STR attacks
rangers and rogues to DEX attacks
wizards to INT attacks
and so on ...
That is what I expected before this article.
Now I think that instead each classe might get proficiencies (maybe having to select in a list for the class) in a number of weapons or implements.
If you don't have the prof. in a weapon or implement, you don't have any malus, but if your have it, you get the weapon specific bonus.
That way you could have simple but heavy weapons with a lower bonus, but greater damage, and lighter (or more precise) weapon doing less damage but with a greater bonus to hit.
Exemples (I made them up):
Maul
prof. 1
damage d12
Rapier
prof. 4
damage d6
special : high critical
Longsword
prof. 3
damage d8
We know that AC, like all defenses, will increase with level, but there are several things adding to it :
AC = 1/2 level + Dex (depending on armor) + armor + shield
To attack versus AC, you only have [ability bonus] + 1/2 level (the new base attack bonus)
Seems like there should be some kind of bonus allowing each character to be better at some forms of attacks than others.
In Star Wars Saga, each class get a static bonus (+0, +1 or +2) to each defense. In 4th edition, I exepected the same way to have classes with static bonus for their main attack type.
For exemple Fighters having a +2 bonus to melee attacks, Ranger the same with ranged attacks, wizards with their spells, and so on.
A better system yet could be that the bonus would be tied to a specific ability :
fighters getting a bonus to STR attacks
rangers and rogues to DEX attacks
wizards to INT attacks
and so on ...
That is what I expected before this article.
Now I think that instead each classe might get proficiencies (maybe having to select in a list for the class) in a number of weapons or implements.
If you don't have the prof. in a weapon or implement, you don't have any malus, but if your have it, you get the weapon specific bonus.
That way you could have simple but heavy weapons with a lower bonus, but greater damage, and lighter (or more precise) weapon doing less damage but with a greater bonus to hit.
Exemples (I made them up):
Maul
prof. 1
damage d12
Rapier
prof. 4
damage d6
special : high critical
Longsword
prof. 3
damage d8
TwinBahamut
First Post
I think the very fact that the number under the Proficiency column is written as a numeral rather than a word (2 rather than Two), actually says a lot.
In D&D, pretty much everything that is used directly in mathematical calculation is listed as a numeral, while anything conceptual (like Two-Handed weapons and proficiency levels) is referenced with full words. This is a useful distinction that helps keep things clear when reading tables and such.
Because of this, I think there is a very high chance that this number is referring to a real combat modifier, such as a proficiency bonus to attack rolls, and a much lower chance of it being a categorization system for proficiency.
In D&D, pretty much everything that is used directly in mathematical calculation is listed as a numeral, while anything conceptual (like Two-Handed weapons and proficiency levels) is referenced with full words. This is a useful distinction that helps keep things clear when reading tables and such.
Because of this, I think there is a very high chance that this number is referring to a real combat modifier, such as a proficiency bonus to attack rolls, and a much lower chance of it being a categorization system for proficiency.
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