Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[starwed]

It was one of the questions from "Ask Wizards," on 08/28/2006.

Q: If you take the Adaptive Style feat (Tome of Battle, pg. 28), can you pick new maneuvers and/or ready all maneuvers by spending a full-round action in the middle of combat?

A: Yes, you can use Adaptive Style to pick new maneuvers in the middle of combat. Since you are picking new maneuvers, they would all be readied. This is a clear advantage for a class such as the swordsage, who normally has to spend a full round action to recover a single maneuver, and would be a great feat to pick up.

How much stock you put into this is up to you.

 

[glass]

FWIW, my current AoW campaign includes a Swordsage:Wizard, and he doesn't seem to outshine the rest of the group (Rogue:Artificer, Druid:Barbarian, and Beguiler:Fighter).

The party have just made third level, and the swordsage's best ability so far has been the 'everybody-flanks' stance. That is certainly a potent ability, but it an allows the whole party to shine which IMO makes it much more palatable. The rogue especially likes it.


glass.

 

[brehobit]

It may sound silly, but the warblade looks to me as if it would probably be an interesting and balanced class when compared to other melee types with no stances or manoeuvres at all!

A little bit weak I'd say. Maybe just stances and you'd have a pretty reasonable class compared to the other melee types.


Mark

 

[Victim]

Yep the joys of doing things by memory, thanks...


I think in general your analysis was generous to the swordsage. (Getting a sneak attack on an AoO is rare for example). That said:

* The HP/AC difference probably goes to the swordsage, but for some things there is nothing like lots of HPs.
* The barbarian has a marked advantage at range.
* This swordsage build (all dex) is more than a bit broken and has lots of problems (carrying things for example)
* I would argue that the fireball is quite likely to catch more than one baddy in the blast. I never saw it NOT manage that in about 10 fights (using published Eberron modules...). 6d6 (+2 perhaps) is good area damage at this level.
* As noted, fire resistance would suck a fair bit of damage away. But if you _know_ you will be facing fire resistant baddies, you can select different maneuvers with a 5 minute break.
* I chose the maneuvers somewhat randomly. He should have one more 3rd level one...

Net effect: the swordsage at 6th level is on-par with a fairly optimized warrior type (perhaps better in most fights, certainly worse in some). This build can teleport 50' at will (well needs 1 round to regain that ability after using it, but that is _really_ handy esp. in a front-line fighter). He could freely choose to spider climb at will. And he has darn good skills.

Thanks for doing the comparison!

Well, it seems reasonable that at least 1 AoO was triggered by the swordsage going invisible, moving to a good position, and then taking getting an attack based on his enemy not knowing he was there. Plus it's not unreasonable for the swordsage for get more than 2 AoO in a fight either with his reach. He can usually spend a move action tumbling backwards AoO free, and then any attackers pressing him have to provoke again. Fewer AoOs that hit harder vs several more attacks is going to be pretty even. Besides, at the point where I was making those assumptions, I figured the fighter was going to win so I could afford to be generous.

As far as fire resistance goes, I was thinking more along the lines of Resist Energy than fire based monsters. It's an easy way for classed character to blunt the effects of the most common magic attack, scales with caster level, and lasts a fair amount of time. And at higher levels, cleric types often won't have anything better to do with their low level spells than to slap a bunch of Resists on themselves or their friends.

 

[Soel]

Does Adaptive Style really work that way? Where can I find confirmation?

Thanks, -- N

According to WotC Customer Service it does. Don't have a link, but you can find it on the Character Optimization boards over at Wizards.

Basically, when you re-prepare your manuevers, they are all refreshed. Its a side effect of the feat, probably not intended RAW.

 

[Nifft]

According to WotC Customer Service it does. Don't have a link, but you can find it on the Character Optimization boards over at Wizards.

Basically, when you re-prepare your manuevers, they are all refreshed. Its a side effect of the feat, probably not intended RAW.

Holy anthropomorphic baleen whale guano, Batman! That's totally bake-your-priest and punch-a-cobra awesome! TOTALLY!!!one!

Swordsage is clearly the new black.

-- N

 

[Nail]

Holy anthropomorphic baleen whale guano, Batman! That's totally bake-your-priest and punch-a-cobra awesome! TOTALLY!!!one!

Swordsage is clearly the new black.

-- N

Sarcasm aside (if possible): is Adaptive Style balanced? That seems over-the-top to me.

FWIW, I see no reason for a Warblade to have d12 HD. Can anyone provide a reason (other than "power creep")? Assume a Ftr is also a viable class, and that WB should be balnaced WRT the warblade.

 

[Nightfall]

Reason for Warblade having d12? Well what's the reason most classes with d12s have them? Last longer than their d10 counterparts.

Victim,

Well in general, our party relies on out-tactical thinking our DMs opponents. It works so long as I (and the others) keep to their roles. Plus the fact most of our DMs have the tactical intellecelt(sp) of a Tarrasque. So as you can see, while I think of these things, most of my fellow players don't and usually keep to either RP or tactial concerns as they relate to being "better" than the opponents. True we do get magical stuff to increase saves...but in general they rely more on AC and Dex than saves if they get in to trouble. Will and Fort rarely cross their minds. (Unless it's a character that is all about those.) Plus they tend to try to "Bluff-ercise" or "Diplomacize" their way past others in order to "feint, back stab/sneak attack" past the spellcasters. (These guys often have like +15 or +20 totals to their rolls on those skills.)

So maybe that's why...

Sol,

Eh the only thing I've learned about initiative counts is if it's a part of your character's power/skill thingie. Bards might need to go first but in general, they are dead by the second round.
Eh

 

[Nail]

Reason for Warblade having d12? Well what's the reason most classes with d12s have them? Last longer than their d10 counterparts.

....yeah. Do I have to thank you for that "clarification"?

Question: "Why do Warblades get d12 HD?"

Unlike Bbns, warblades are not forced into having a lower AC. And the Ftr, the quintessential warrior-type, gets d10. What do Warblades lack (that Ftrs have) that warrants a d12?

 

[Nightfall]

Well you don't have to thank me. You can be rude if you want Nail.

I'm just saying "I think they wanted something that had cool abilities and could hang with other d12s"

Undead, Dragons etc.