Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[satori01]

I doubt it.

HD: Warblade is better

BAB: same

Saves: same

Skills: Warblade has a better list and more points

Armor: Ftr has Hvy Armor Proficiency, but Warblade is NOT barred from picking up the feat.

Feats: Ftr better...but that's his schtick, and meanwhile the Warblade gets.....

Maneuvers: Warblade is better. Warblade can "recharge" every other round, if desired. Pick up Adaptive Style, and he can be doing this all day.

Class Abilities: A Ftr has none, other than the feats already mentioned. A Warblade gets several that are quite useful.


Decision: Warblade. It's an easy call, really.

Warblade will also suffer from MAD. To say nothing precludes a Warblade from taking Heavy Armor Proficency is a bit of a cop out. Nothing precludes a Barbarian from Taking Heavy Armor and Tower Shield Proficiency either. Sure the Barb, losses fast movement, but for many people, that is not that big of a deal.

The skill lists of the TOB classes are larger, and have more skill points than the fighter list, because many of the Martial Adept disciplines have maneuvers that require skill checks. The TOB classes have skill points like the Bard has skill points; it looks impressive on the outside, but at least one of their skills is going to be mandated by a discipline selection, more than likely. A Warblade might very well have a maxed out Concentration skill, a skill that will only get used when he activates Diamond Mind powers. Also because of the skill requirements for the various Disciplines, most of the TOB class list are hodge podge, not focused like the Ranger or Rogue.

The Warblade class abillities are interesting, but not outstanding. The Int bonus to damage for flanked enemies is probably the best, and again depends on how high ones Intelligence is. If you are talking standard point buy, puting a 14 in INT, is going to hurt more direct abilities like CON, DEX, and STR. If you are talking about having insane ability scores, than yes the Warblade blows away the fighter. But then so does the Swordsage,(who in that case might be better than Warblade), the Monk, and the Paladin.

I like the TOB classes, you can model a lot of different archtypes with them, and combat is more than rush forward and full attack. For me the TOB classes allow for more interesting and fun things to potentially occur. Most of the dislike for the classes, is the balance committee feeling like it steps on the toes of the Fighter. Frankly I play the game for fun, and if it allows someone to have more fun, then the class is a go for me.

So far from my experience, a Swordsage has not made any of the meleeist in my 2 campaigns feel obsolete.

Power Attack + Divine Might + Paladin's Smite Evil + Bless Weapon + Keen Edge = More damage than most TOB classes will do.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The Warblade class abillities are interesting, but not outstanding. The Int bonus to damage for flanked enemies is probably the best, and again depends on how high ones Intelligence is. If you are talking standard point buy, puting a 14 in INT, is going to hurt more direct abilities like CON, DEX, and STR. If you are talking about having insane ability scores, than yes the Warblade blows away the fighter. But then so does the Swordsage,(who in that case might be better than Warblade), the Monk, and the Paladin.

I'd play one with good Dex and Int and merely average Str/Con/Wis/Cha quite happily (switching the normal Fighter Str + Con focus for Dex+Int instead).

Just what I'd do. I don't see it as much in the way of MAD (compared to paladins/rangers and monks, especially)

 

[Plane Sailing]

Power Attack + Divine Might + Paladin's Smite Evil + Bless Weapon + Keen Edge = More damage than most TOB classes will do.

All very well, but you hardly get any smite evils, and Bless weapon doesn't stack with keen edge if I remember the spell correctly. Get a lucky x3 or x4 crit with smite evil and you do tons of damage, sure... but you don't have the staying power for doing that kind of damage during a dungeon crawl that the ToB classes have!

 

[Nail]

Warblade will also suffer from MAD.

The only difference between Ftr and WB is Int. That's hardly a M.A.D. problem.

To say nothing precludes a Warblade from taking Heavy Armor Proficency is a bit of a cop out. Nothing precludes a Barbarian from Taking Heavy Armor and Tower Shield Proficiency either. Sure the Barb, losses fast movement, but for many people, that is not that big of a deal.

So, to summarize:

• Bbn loses a class ability if he wears heavy armor.
• WB loses no class abilities if wearing heavy armor.

The advantage seems very clear-cut, actually.

The skill lists of the TOB classes are larger, and have more skill points than the fighter list, because many of the Martial Adept disciplines have maneuvers that require skill checks.

Some do, some don't. The advantage still lies very clearly with the WB. Are you claiming that having ranks in Tumbling has no advantage other than its use in a martial maneuver?

The Warblade class abillities are interesting, but not outstanding. The Int bonus to damage for flanked enemies is probably the best, and again depends on how high ones Intelligence is.

You've missed a few "interesting" abilities. Namely:

• Ability to switch weapon feats around to whatever weapon he's using. Have Weapon Focus on a Greatsword, but want it on Long Composite Bow for the up-coming ambush? Done.
• All "fighter only" feats are accessable, like weapon specialization.
• Uncanny Dodge and improved uncanny dodge
• Int bonus to Ref saves
• Int bonus when flanking
• Int bonus on disarm, bull-rush, sunder, trip, etc checks

For me the TOB classes allow for more interesting and fun things to potentially occur.

Me too.

Does that require a d12 HD? Does that require the better skill list and class abilities than the fighter?

Most of the dislike for the classes, is the balance committee feeling like it steps on the toes of the Fighter. Frankly I play the game for fun, and if it allows someone to have more fun, then the class is a go for me.

If you have someone playing a Ftr, their fun will be diminished when someone brings in a WB.

PC: "I'd have more fun if my Wiz PC had d12 HD. Wha'd'ya say?"

 

[kigmatzomat]

Sword sage is okay. I think of it as a flexible-build monk. In many ways it is more flashy than a monk.

Warblade..... I love the class; great flavor and is fun to play. But it is quite a bit beefier than the non-MA warrior classes. Better skills, better HD, class specials, and maneuvers. If it were d10 HD, fighter skill list and had about 2 less maneuvers at 1st level I'd be happier.

 

[Paradigm]

If you have someone playing a Ftr, their fun will be diminished when someone brings in a WB.

PC: "I'd have more fun if my Wiz PC had d12 HD. Wha'd'ya say?"

I would contest that assertion. I may have the rule-lawyerist (new word!) game store on earth, and it isn't like ToB is the new black. When it was new there was a surge of martial adepts, now not so much.

Feats are too readily dismissed in favor of class features. A 10th level fighter has 10 feats, that is a power not to be dismissed. In those feats, a fighter could take choice martial manuevers and stances, or just build any number of dominating melee builds.

I will grant that fighter gets too few skills, though I think that Rogue gets too few skills also.

 

[Perun]

• Ability to switch weapon feats around to whatever weapon he's using. Have Weapon Focus on a Greatsword, but want it on Long Composite Bow for the up-coming ambush? Done.

This is the only warblade ability that I believe is unfair to the fighter. And, IMO, I've house-ruled it so that the fighters get it as well.

If you have someone playing a Ftr, their fun will be diminished when someone brings in a WB.

Might be diminished, for some players. I'd, generally, play a fighter over a warblade.

Regards.

 

[Nail]

I would contest that assertion. I may have the rule-lawyerist (new word!) game store on earth, and it isn't like ToB is the new black. When it was new there was a surge of martial adepts, now not so much.

Huh.

Could you expand upon that a bit? I'm interested.

Feats are too readily dismissed in favor of class features. A 10th level fighter has 10 feats, that is a power not to be dismissed.

A Ftr 10 gains 6 bonus feats. (No fair counting the feats gained by PC level! Everyone gets those!) Those feats are limited to the Ftr Bonus feat list...meaning several very cool Ftr-friendly feats are left out.

SPOILER:

Spoiler

In my game I allow a Ftr a bonus feat every level. And even there, I don't think the Ftr beats a Warblade. I've worked up a 3rd, 6th, and 9th level comparison, and the Warblade kicks the Ftr...usually. Like Perun, I consider the ability to switch weapons a Big Deal(tm).

But setting my game aside, and going back to a straight Ftr-Warblade comparison.......why'd the Warblade get all the designer lovin'?

 

[Nail]

Might be diminished, for some players. I'd, generally, play a fighter over a warblade.

Really? Why?

 

[Perun]

Really? Why?

Because, IMO, a fighter is more customizeable (due to a large number of feats and feat slots available) and simpler and more elegant to run. And because I like it more

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying warblade is bad (in any way), it's just that I (and, supposedly, a few other people), when given a choice, would rather pick a fighter to play. However, I also recognise the attractiveness of the warblade and its manoeuvres (and would play one sooner than I'd play a barbarian).