Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[Paradigm]

D&D sucks for archers, that is a whole other thread.

 

[Nail]

....a whole 'nother thread. Let's keep this one on Warblades and Swordsages, if you wouldn't mind.

(My orginal point - that WB can switch weapon focus etc as often as they like - has been totally lost. C'est la guerre.)

 

[kaomera]

(My orginal point - that WB can switch weapon focus etc as often as they like - has been totally lost. C'est la guerre.)

OK, I'll bite... Under what circumstances would you consider this ability to be particularly useful? (I'd personally be more likely to find concern with the WB's ability to gain otherwise fighter-only feats. It's not like you can whip out a backup weapon if you're disarmed and suddenly switch all of your feats over...)

 

[dagger]

A situation involving treasure is the main benefit I would think.

 

[Paradigm]

OK, I'll bite... Under what circumstances would you consider this ability to be particularly useful? (I'd personally be more likely to find concern with the WB's ability to gain otherwise fighter-only feats. It's not like you can whip out a backup weapon if you're disarmed and suddenly switch all of your feats over...)

Most useful instance would be Improved Unarmed Strike after being taken prisoner. Otherwise, I guess if you invested in Longsword and then found a great magical battleaxe or something.

 

[kaomera]

Most useful instance would be Improved Unarmed Strike after being taken prisoner. Otherwise, I guess if you invested in Longsword and then found a great magical battleaxe or something.

Improved Unarmed does not require a choice of what weapon it applies to, so I'm not seeing how there would be any effect on that feat. If you mean being able to swap over things like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization to Unarmed, then you do have a good point. It still requires that you be allowed one hour of practice (with an "unarmed" available to practice with ), but I can think of a lot of scenarios where that wouldn't be a problem. So, OK, if you're captured or lose your weapon and can't retrieve / replace it (or you replace it with a different type of weapon) then it is an advantage. Not a situation I see come up all that often IMC, but I can't argue it isn't an advantage.

As far as swapping weapons because of found treasure, I guess I'm limiting myself in that I normally tailor any major magic items (like weapons, armor) to the party members. I can see this being an advantage anyway, since you can swap out if you know you will be facing opponents that are weak against x type of damage. You'd still be at a disadvantage in that you'd have to carry around (both in terms of encumbrance and wealth level) extra weapons. IMC the PCs don't find bunches of "extra" level-appropriate gear, but I can see the benefit of swapping your +3 Keen, Frost Burst greatsword for a +1 Flaming, Ghost Touch heavy mace in some circumstances... At which point you need all the other bonuses you can stack, so the ability becomes even more useful.

 

[Paradigm]

If you mean being able to swap over things like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization to Unarmed, then you do have a good point.

That is what I meant, yes.

IMC the PCs don't find bunches of "extra" level-appropriate gear, but I can see the benefit of swapping your +3 Keen, Frost Burst greatsword for a +1 Flaming, Ghost Touch heavy mace in some circumstances... At which point you need all the other bonuses you can stack, so the ability becomes even more useful.

I have backup weapons with ghost touch, adamantine and silver for my marshal.

 

[satori01]

If you have someone playing a Ftr, their fun will be diminished when someone brings in a WB.

That is the meta argument people want to bandy about. Though I really suspect that if you have a well designed character you love, the fact that someone else makes a very effective character to join your group, is not necessarily going to cheese you off that much.

As I have said, I have now seen two Swordsages in action, one in a low level party starting from 1st level, and one in a 14th level party as a replacement character. So far neither has been unbalancing, and neither has made other players feel overmatched.

Now I will say this, I run a hodge podge game. AE, Complete Series, Homemade PrC, Monte Cook supplements....my game has alot of options available to people. Take a plain 'Vanilla' game, and TOB will be over the top. I strongly suspect if TOB appeals to you in the first place, you dont run a 'Vanilla" game.

 

[catsclaw227]

It was one of the questions from "Ask Wizards," on 08/28/2006.

Q: If you take the Adaptive Style feat (Tome of Battle, pg. 28), can you pick new maneuvers and/or ready all maneuvers by spending a full-round action in the middle of combat?

A: Yes, you can use Adaptive Style to pick new maneuvers in the middle of combat. Since you are picking new maneuvers, they would all be readied. This is a clear advantage for a class such as the swordsage, who normally has to spend a full round action to recover a single maneuver, and would be a great feat to pick up.

How much stock you put into this is up to you.

I am not sure, but I read the adaptive style as being able to spend a round to refocus and swap out your maneuvers, but it DOESN'T change the number of maneuvers you can perform in one encounter.

i.e., You have spent 2 maneuvers, and you have 2 more left this encounter, but they aren't very effective and you want to change them. You can use Adaptive Style to spend a round and change out your maneuvers, but you still only have 2 more maneuvers left to perform in this encounter. That number doesn't reset simply by changing focus.

This is how we play it.

 

[glass]

The only difference between Ftr and WB is Int. That's hardly a M.A.D. problem.

And Dex, unless you are going to burn a feat on heavy armour proficiency.

So, to summarize:

• Bbn loses a class ability if he wears heavy armor.
• WB loses no class abilities if wearing heavy armor.

The advantage seems very clear-cut, actually.

Some do, some don't. The advantage still lies very clearly with the WB. Are you claiming that having ranks in Tumbling has no advantage other than its use in a martial maneuver?

So tumbling, which you can't do in heavy armour*, is a big advantage, but the WB doesn't lose any advantages in heavy armour?

You've missed a few "interesting" abilities. Namely: Ability to switch weapon feats around to whatever weapon he's using. Have Weapon Focus on a Greatsword, but want it on Long Composite Bow for the up-coming ambush? Done.

That would be the composite longbow they aren't proficient in? Or are you burning yet another feat?

Don't get me wrong, I think the WB is a little on the stong side, but it isn't anything like the uberclass you are painting.


glass.

* unless you are a dwarf.