Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[Plane Sailing]

I don't see the heavy armour proficiency lack as a penalty at all.

Mithral full plate is a medium armour that gives you the AC bonus of full plate, for instance.

The difference between light armour and heavy armour is only +4 to AC which while nice doesn't stay all that important for long and is often offset by the movement penalties of heavy armour.

 

[Plane Sailing]

At 19th level noone is going to notice the effect of a first level maneuver, if you can even get all high level maneuvers, they tend to have prerequisites.

But isn't that like saying that a Ftr18 who takes Wiz1 shouldn't just get 1st level spells because no one is going to notice the effect of a 1st level spell?

 

[glass]

I don't see the heavy armour proficiency lack as a penalty at all.

Mithral full plate is a medium armour that gives you the AC bonus of full plate, for instance.

It counts as medium armour for certain puposes, but you still have be proficient in full plate to ware it effectively.

Also, you can't tumble in medium armour either.


glass.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It counts as medium armour for certain puposes, but you still have be proficient in full plate to ware it effectively.

Mithral Full Plate of Speed: As a free action, the wearer of this fine set of +1 mithral full plate can activate it, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds.
Speed while wearing a suit of mithral full plate is 20 feet for Medium creatures, or 15 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of –3. It is considered medium armor and weighs 25 pounds.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price 26,500 gp.

That just says it is considered medium armour; doesn't say anything about needing heavy armour proficiency to wear it. Are you thinking of something else? Maybe there are generic rules for mithral armour which this particular item supercedes?

Tumble just makes light armour even more attractive, I'm just pointing out that you can get the heavy armour AC bonus without having the heavy armour proficiency. Heavy armour is rarely worth having while adventuring on the whole in my experience.

Cheers

 

[glass]

That just says it is considered medium armour; doesn't say anything about needing heavy armour proficiency to wear it. Are you thinking of something else? Maybe there are generic rules for mithral armour which this particular item supercedes?

It is still full plate, which means it need full plate proficiency. What kind of proficiency do you need for full plate? Heavy Armour. It says it is considered medium armour, which means it can't actually be medium armour, can it?

EDIT: Another point. If it is your contention that it is not full plate, then it can't get full plate's armour bonus, can it? It gets some (undefined) bonus for generic medium armour.

EDIT 2: Anyway, this has been debated before and is hardly essential to the main point of the thread, so I'll leave it there.


glass.

 

[glass]

Tumble just makes light armour even more attractive, I'm just pointing out that you can get the heavy armour AC bonus without having the heavy armour proficiency. Heavy armour is rarely worth having while adventuring on the whole in my experience.

I was adressing Nail's seeming contradictory contentions that Warblades don't lose anything by wearing heavy armour while Barbarians do (assuming both have taken the feat), and that the Tumble skill is the mutts nuts.

Especially since Barbarians keep their Fast Movement in the medium armour that they are both proficient in, while Warblades lose their ability to Tumble. This applies equally to mithral full plate, whether you think they both need a feat or can both use it as is. It doesn't apply to dwarves, though, of course.


glass.

 

[FireLance]

But isn't that like saying that a Ftr18 who takes Wiz1 shouldn't just get 1st level spells because no one is going to notice the effect of a 1st level spell?

Well, first of all, I'd question the assertion that no-one will notice the effect of a 1st-level spell, and similarly, no-one will notice the effect of a 1st-level maneuver. There are 1st-level maneuvers (and spells, I'm sure) that synergize well with a Ftr18's abilities.

That said, the martial adept multiclassing mechanic is one of the most ingenious that I've seen in a good long time, because it allows you access to higher-level maneuvers while still requiring some sort of logical progression through the "number of maneuvers known" prerequisite.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Well, first of all, I'd question the assertion that no-one will notice the effect of a 1st-level spell, and similarly, no-one will notice the effect of a 1st-level maneuver. There are 1st-level maneuvers (and spells, I'm sure) that synergize well with a Ftr18's abilities.

As you note, it is the assertion that 1st level manouvres are useless that I'm questioning too

 

[Plane Sailing]

It is still full plate, which means it need full plate proficiency. What kind of proficiency do you need for full plate? Heavy Armour. It says it is considered medium armour, which means it can't actually be medium armour, can it?

That seems like a foolish argument to me. The meaning of the words seem pretty straightforward. It is considered medium armour thus medium armour proficiency is required to wear it. Proficiency is given in weights of armour, not specific armours.

Regards

 

[kaomera]

But isn't that like saying that a Ftr18 who takes Wiz1 shouldn't just get 1st level spells because no one is going to notice the effect of a 1st level spell?

More or less. IMHO, it's generally kind of silly to take a first level of Wizard at 19th level, for the spells known (getting access to the spell list for magic item use is possibly a better reason, and there are probably others). The Martial Adept classes are designed to encourage this practice (possibly to make the material more useful when dropped into an ongoing campaign)