Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[NilesB]

But isn't that like saying that a Ftr18 who takes Wiz1 shouldn't just get 1st level spells because no one is going to notice the effect of a 1st level spell?

Point 1:because first level spells have out of combat utility they would be signifigantly more valuable to an 18th level fighter than first level Martial maneuvers.
Point 2: Taking one level of wizard is not a balanced option, it is an underpowered option. Supplements should not be balanced against PCs who shoot themselves in the foot. Maybe you would be interested in the big book of Commoner variants, but I'd rather see designer try not to repeat their mistakes than to see them enshrine those mistakes as a baseline.

 

[NilesB]

Most useful instance would be Improved Unarmed Strike after being taken prisoner.

Sure you can change your weapon specific feats over to Unarmed strike, provided your captors aloow you a good nights sleep followed by a uninterupted hour of practicing your boxing. Then you have the opportunity to see how well you can fight your way free of the captors who were able to defeat you when you were properly equipped with your bare hands, taking an attack of opportunity every swing you take at them. If that's the most useful scenario you can come up with to take advantage of this class ability it doesn't seem that much better than say, the bard's inability to use the silent spell feat.

 

[Victim]

But isn't that like saying that a Ftr18 who takes Wiz1 shouldn't just get 1st level spells because no one is going to notice the effect of a 1st level spell?

Exactly, that's why there are 80 billion PrCs and new base classes designed for fighter/magic users. The base combination of fighter X plus wizard Y generally isn't very good precisely because nothing stacks. Fighting classes can easily stack Bab and thus multiclass effectively.

The system for initiator level seems to be designed so that there is some stacking, like BaB. Really, there has to be; there's not going to be room for a bunch of PrCs that would fix the matter. I guess the question is how much non-power (whether it be manuevers, spells, psionics) should stack with power levels. I think that the current ToB system is problematic in that it makes order of operations so important, and that one level is probably too good - especially since only the first level is that great.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I agree, martial adepts multiclass too darned well. If they reduced the number of maneuvers at 1st level I'd be happier both for multi-classing and balance. I've house-ruled that the total Initiator level is capped at 4xAdept Class level, though I'd consider cutting it down to 2x Adept Class level if my game weren't already at 20th level.

 

[Nightfall]

*thinks if nothing else he's right that martial adept classes are way more fun than fighters*

And yes Eric I figured that might be the case...but I'm more welcoming of fighter/rogues.

 

[Nail]

It is still full plate, which means it need full plate proficiency.

I'm sorry glass, but you'll have to point us in the direction of this "Full Plate Proficiency".

Hint: It doesn't exist.

Mithril Full Plate is treated as medium armor. How could that be clearer?

 

[Nail]

OK, I'll bite... Under what circumstances would you consider this ability to be particularly useful?

Being able to switch weapon proficiency feats is very useful...depending on your campaign. If your DM custom-builds the treasure pile to always include weapons the PCs can use - even specialize in - then it's obviously less useful.

In the games I've run, and the games I've played, you don't reliably find your weapon of choice in the treasure pile...unless it's a common weapon. Even then, odds are not 100%. In published adventures, you're quite apt to see melee weapons your specialized Ftr can't use.

...but not your specialized WB.

 

[Nightfall]

I'm sorry glass, but you'll have to point us in the direction of this "Full Plate Proficiency".

Hint: It doesn't exist.

Mithril Full Plate is treated as medium armor. How could that be clearer?

You could try this:


MITHRIL FULL PLATE IS TREATED AS MEDIUM ARMOR.

Like so...

 

[Nail]

I was addressing Nail's seeming contradictory contentions that Warblades don't lose anything by wearing heavy armour while Barbarians do (assuming both have taken the feat), and that the Tumble skill is the mutts nuts.

Contradictory? I'm just laying out the benefits of the WB class...I'm not claiming synergy between tumble and heavy armor.

WBs have no penalty when wearing Heavy Armor. (They do need to take a feat to do so.)

WBs have access to a larger skill list, which includes the valuable tumble skill.

WBs who chose to wear armor that lowers their movement rate (Medium or Heavy armor...or are dwarves ) probably won't be the same WBs that use the Tumbling skill. Tumble is a great skill for those that are built to move in melee...and therefore wish to avoid AoOs. If your PC is not built for mobility, then it's clear Tumble is less useful to you.

 

[Nail]

You could try this:

Geez-zes-kryst!

Give a fella a bit o' warning before ye do that! Now I gotta tip my chair back up off the floor.....