Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[Paradigm]

Huh.

Could you expand upon that a bit? I'm interested.

At first, there was a lot of Martial Adepts, mostly Warblades because of the HPs. The Warblade, with his cool manuever would inflict about as much as the fighter, with the added bonus of being able to move more than 5 feet. (The fighter would be making 2 attacks). Where the Warblade started to fall behind was off of buffs. The Fighter would get more benifit out of spells such as Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Haste, because the manuever (as a standard or full round action) would not permit an additional attack. The Fighter also benefits from other buffs because he will strike more often and thus apply the bonus more often.
In a vacuum the Warblade may shape up better, but characters play in parties.

A Ftr 10 gains 6 bonus feats. (No fair counting the feats gained by PC level! Everyone gets those!) Those feats are limited to the Ftr Bonus feat list...meaning several very cool Ftr-friendly feats are left out.

But setting my game aside, and going back to a straight Ftr-Warblade comparison.......why'd the Warblade get all the designer lovin'?

First, I'd only play fighters in your game.
Second, 6 feats is still a significant boost

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

How about the fact that the book offers the maneuvers and stances on a 1-for-1 feat basis?

If the stances are worth a feat in and of themselves ...

--fje

 

[Nail]

Because, IMO, a fighter is more customizable (due to a large number of feats and feat slots available) and simpler and more elegant to run.

That's interesting. For my own explorations and level-by-level write-ups, the WB looks *much* more customizable, as it gets many maneuvers that it can use in a battle, and it can recharge those maneuvers if necessary with a Standard action + attack. And with Adaptive style, he can even change maneuvers around mid-battle.

Still, a "write-up" isn't the same thing as playing a class. I'd love to see it in play, or hear about someone who's played one. I'd rather that such a experience includes many levels of play, not just one adventure...but beggars can't be choosers.

And because I like it more

No arguing with that.

 

[Nail]

How about the fact that the book offers the maneuvers and stances on a 1-for-1 feat basis?

If the stances are worth a feat in and of themselves ...

Exactly.

 

[NilesB]

I'd play one with good Dex and Int and merely average Str/Con/Wis/Cha quite happily (switching the normal Fighter Str + Con focus for Dex+Int instead).

Just what I'd do. I don't see it as much in the way of MAD (compared to paladins/rangers and monks, especially)

When all is said and done a Warblades are primary melee combatants. You can build one without strength, but you can also build a single class cleric with a Wis of 12, neither one is gonna be effective. But what about that feat that lets you add your Dex Mod to weapon damage you ask? Shadow Blade requires access to the Shadow Hand Discipline which Warblades do not get. A fighter can get Shadow Blade earlier than a warblade, and keeping the feat active doesn't disrupt the fighter's class abilities.

 

[Victim]

How about the fact that the book offers the maneuvers and stances on a 1-for-1 feat basis?

If the stances are worth a feat in and of themselves ...

--fje

Well, one stance is worth one feat. Since only one stance can be running at time, additional stances are going to lose some value. So a fighter who uses a few feats to gain qualifying moves and then finally picks the stance he wants will probably get about as much use from it as the swordsage gets from his 4 stances.

But multiclassing into an adept is so much better for fighting types than picking up the feats. It's kind of like fighters going to barbarian or vice versa, except with order of operations playing a huge role. I can understand trying to make multiclassing attractive with adepts in a way that it isn't for casters, but it seems like too much. Maybe there should be a cap on the levels of manuevers that should can get with emulated adept levels or something. Going from no special moves to a 5th level one is kind of jarring.

 

[NilesB]

Going from no special moves to a 5th level one is kind of jarring.

At 19th level noone is going to notice the effect of a first level maneuver, if you can even get all high level maneuvers, they tend to have prerequisites.

 

[NilesB]

• Ability to switch weapon feats around to whatever weapon he's using. Have Weapon Focus on a Greatsword, but want it on Long Composite Bow for the up-coming ambush? Done.

Warblades aren't even proficient in composite longbows. they can't do it.

 

[Nail]

Warblades aren't even proficient in composite longbows. they can't do it.

Well what do you know. I glossed right over that.

Still, they *can* switch around their weapon feats as often as desired....so long as they are proficient with the weapons.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Honestly, personally ... unless you're a dedicated archer, D&D doesn't really reward you that much for having a bow.

I say this because I'm playing a dedicated meleeist cleric, which can get big and beatstick better than the party fighter ... and, since I have a level of Barbarian, I have bows. So does the fighter.

I go from damage in the 20-30s on a regular hit to 1d8+2 on a hit with my +2Str Composite Longbow. Woo. Even if we've got a flying enemy, it's better to get somebody to cast Fly than stand back and ping them for round after round. Now, a specialized archer can dish down their own damage, but you've got a whole different build from a melee guy.

The most effective I've seen bows in non-dedicated-archer hands was the time we built an ambush behind a thick specially-prepared Wall Of Stone and had +4 Aberration Bane Flaming Burst Arrows prepared specifically to slaughter some naga ... and, in the end, what really won there was a Bead-pumped Holy Word that paralyzed them all. Then we Shaped a door in the wall and walked out and CDGed.

Honestly, being totally protected behind a stone wall with maxed out super-arrows is about the best it's going to get, and it still wasn't that hot.

--fje