D&D 5E Warlock and Repelling Blast

[Celtavian]

So if a warlock sends the three beams to separate targets, only the first gets pushed back? Do you determine that randomly or let the player choose which target is hit first? For me, this question was deciding factor in deciding how to rule on the situation.

No. It says if eldritch blast hits. That means each casting of eldtrich blast knocks them back 10 feet. If you pick different targets, you knock each back 10 feet. I don't allow cumulative beams to knock back the targets since I view each casting as simultaneous. If someone else wants to view it as pulsing sequentially, they can run it that way. In my view, if Crawford or Mearls rule it as more than 10 feet, I will find it highly annoying and unbelievably stupid. Allowing a cantrip to potentially push back any creature of any size or power back up to 40 feet creates tactical issues that are insurmountable and exploitable in a fashion that absolutely should not be allowed in a game. It will allow parties to do stuff like push Demogorgon back 40 feet, kite him, so that he cannot land an attack on an intelligent party exploiting the rules to maximum advantage regardless of how lame it makes the fight look. If the game designers are too stupid to see the inherent problem in such an ability, then I will lose faith in their ability to create for the game.

I'm giving the game designers the benefit of the doubt that they are not making a cantrip more powerful than many higher level spells and abilities that give a save for less movement. The only logical and balanced way to adjudicate eldtrich blast is to allow each casting to only move the target 10 feet. Otherwise, the cantrip becomes a far too powerful method to build ranged groups around and that should not be allowed into a game system to make DMs rip their hair out and start to hate running the game. Such loopholes need to be closed and quickly by intelligent game designers that see the tactical problem with the ability and the way it can be exploited if allowed to push targets back 40 feet in conjunction with ranged attack.

That's how I see it. That's how I'll run it. If Crawford ignorantly allows each blast to push a target back 10 feet turning eldrtich blast into overpowered cantrip far superior to many higher level spells, then that's on him and the design team. I won't allow it as a DM.

 

[Celtavian]

It says when you hit. You attack once. Did you hit? If yes, push the target. You attack again. Did you hit? If yes, this is a separate instance of when, a separate moment in time. So you push another 10 feet. That's the most logical, language-based way to understand the sentence.

It has the same language as the invocation that adds CHA mod to eldritch damage blast and that was ruled per hit.

No. It doesn't have the same language. That is a major reason why I run it differently giving the game designers the benefit of the doubt as to their ability to design balanced abilities. One says when you cast eldritch blast, add charisma damage to hit. The other ways when you hit with eldritch blast.

I made the intelligent design ruling that doesn't create big headaches at my table like pushing targets out of melee range for other PCs, allowing kiting of targets so they can never land an attack in ranged groups, pushing targets out of the range of breath weapons, and all types of exploitable tactics using one 0-level endlessly castable cantrip whose range can be extended to 300 feet. I'm trying to close as many problem abilities as early as possible. 5E doesn't have a lot of imbalanced mechanics, but automatically knocking someone back 10 feet per hit with a 0-level unlimited cast ability is one of them I'm going to shut down real quick if the game designers don't have the sense to do it themselves.

I played Pathfinder and dealt with exploitative mechanics for a long time. I came to 5E to escape this kind of mechanic and the players looking to exploit them. I hope the 5E designers don't let too many mechanics like Repelling Blast slip by that damage higher level game play. As long as they keep the number low, I can shut them down like I did this one.

 

[spectacle]

Show me in the rules where casting a spell works like Multiattack. You don't don't get move between beams. You cast the spell using the Cast Spell action, not the Attack Action or any variant. The spell text explains exactly how it works.

These are the rules for making an attack:

"Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a
weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a
spell, an attack has a simple structure.

1.Choose a target.
Pick a target within your attack’s
range: a creature, an object, or a location.

2. Determine modifiers.
The DM determines whether
the target has cover and whether you have advantage
or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties
or bonuses to your attack roll.

3. Resolve the attack.
You make the attack roll. On a hit,
you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules
that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special
effects in addition to or instead of damage."

Nothing here suggests you should select targets for any further spell attacks between steps 1. and 2. of the first blast, and the text of Eldritch Blast itself is silent on when you allocate targets, so you should follow the standard procedure of picking the target when you make the attack, not before.

The rule for moving between attacks explicitly refers to weapon attacks, and that seems to be the only way in which where multiple weapon attacks and multiple spell attacks are handled differently.

 

[Arial Black]

These are the rules for making an attack:

"Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a
weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a
spell, an attack has a simple structure.

1.Choose a target.
Pick a target within your attack’s
range: a creature, an object, or a location.

2. Determine modifiers.
The DM determines whether
the target has cover and whether you have advantage
or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties
or bonuses to your attack roll.

3. Resolve the attack.
You make the attack roll. On a hit,
you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules
that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special
effects in addition to or instead of damage."

Nothing here suggests you should select targets for any further spell attacks between steps 1. and 2. of the first blast, and the text of Eldritch Blast itself is silent on when you allocate targets, so you should follow the standard procedure of picking the target when you make the attack, not before.

The rule for moving between attacks explicitly refers to weapon attacks, and that seems to be the only way in which where multiple weapon attacks and multiple spell attacks are handled differently.

The quoted section tells us how to resolve a single attack. It does not mention how to resolve multiple attacks, one way or another, because that is not the purpose of this section of the rules.

Although each attack must obey that sequence in order of steps 1, 2 and 3, there is absolutely no problem with simultaneously resolving multiple attacks, just so long as each attack follows those same steps in order 1, 2, 3.

The thing that defines these bolts as simultaneous is the duration of the spell: instantaneous. The spell energy-the bolts-come and go in an instant. The amount of time covered by an instantaneous spell is infinitesimal.

In common speech, an infinitesimal amount of time is an amount of time that is smaller than any feasible measurement, but non-zero; so small that it cannot be distinguished from zero by any available means.

While physicists may refer to Planck Units, gamers need not. All gamers need to know is that there is no useable time during 'instantaneous'; there is simply a before and an after.

Since the spell comes and goes in an instant, you cannot shoot one bolt, see what it does to the target, and then use that information to decide who to target with the next bolt from the same instantaneous spell.

It also means that there is no measurable delay between bolts as they hit the same target. That target is at point A, and there is no measurable time that elapses between the first bolt and the second. Each bolt does what it says, and moves the target 10 feet behind where it was when the bolt hit, and both bolts hit it when it is at point A.

To do otherwise, you have to change the rules. You either have to change 'instantaneous' to be a length of time long enough to measure (which by definition would not be 'instantaneous'), or add words to Repelling Blast to make it move the target back by 10 feet for each bolt that hits (which it doesn't say), rather than by 10 feet if this casting of eldritch blast hits (which is what it does say).

Crawford acknowledged that Repelling Blast can push a target beyond the range of subsequent beams, but the other bolts from the same casting are not 'subsequent', because all the bolts from one casting exist in the same instant. The spell doesn't last for several instants over the course of a round (that would be a '1 round' duration); the entire spell lasts for but a single instant. That's why the bolts are simultaneous. It would be redundant to add that you have to choose all targets before you resolve any of them, because the duration of instantaneous already means that. Still, sometimes they add redundant language just to be sure we understand, like with magic missile over the editions, just like scorching ray in 3.5 and PF. 5E dropped the redundant language for scorching ray, but they didn't change what 'instantaneous' means, not how this spell works. 5E trusts us to understand....which is one big drawback of 5E, as demonstrated by threads such as this one.

 

[Celtavian]

These are the rules for making an attack:

"Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a
weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a
spell, an attack has a simple structure.

1.Choose a target.
Pick a target within your attack’s
range: a creature, an object, or a location.

2. Determine modifiers.
The DM determines whether
the target has cover and whether you have advantage
or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties
or bonuses to your attack roll.

3. Resolve the attack.
You make the attack roll. On a hit,
you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules
that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special
effects in addition to or instead of damage."

Nothing here suggests you should select targets for any further spell attacks between steps 1. and 2. of the first blast, and the text of Eldritch Blast itself is silent on when you allocate targets, so you should follow the standard procedure of picking the target when you make the attack, not before.

The rule for moving between attacks explicitly refers to weapon attacks, and that seems to be the only way in which where multiple weapon attacks and multiple spell attacks are handled differently.

They pick the targets when they cast the spell. For example, they don't get to hit the target, see if he drops, then hit him again if he doesn't. Nothing in the rules you listed changes this. Not everything needs to be spelled out to know how something works. Only a select group of rules lawyer players expect it. Most of us understand that casting a spell like scorching ray or eldritch blast requires you pick the targets prior to seeing the result of your attack. Cast a Spell is different from the attack action in this regard. The fact that the spell uses the Cast a Spell action rather than the attack action indicates the spells attacks all go off at the same time unless like sunbeam it's an attack per round, which the spell text clearly states.

If your version were true, then a user of eldritch blast or scorching ray could keep the spell active and wait for new targets after he moved or wait until another round to expend other rays from the single casting.

 

[Celtavian]

The quoted section tells us how to resolve a single attack. It does not mention how to resolve multiple attacks, one way or another, because that is not the purpose of this section of the rules.

Although each attack must obey that sequence in order of steps 1, 2 and 3, there is absolutely no problem with simultaneously resolving multiple attacks, just so long as each attack follows those same steps in order 1, 2, 3.

The thing that defines these bolts as simultaneous is the duration of the spell: instantaneous. The spell energy-the bolts-come and go in an instant. The amount of time covered by an instantaneous spell is infinitesimal.

In common speech, an infinitesimal amount of time is an amount of time that is smaller than any feasible measurement, but non-zero; so small that it cannot be distinguished from zero by any available means.

While physicists may refer to Planck Units, gamers need not. All gamers need to know is that there is no useable time during 'instantaneous'; there is simply a before and an after.

Since the spell comes and goes in an instant, you cannot shoot one bolt, see what it does to the target, and then use that information to decide who to target with the next bolt from the same instantaneous spell.

It also means that there is no measurable delay between bolts as they hit the same target. That target is at point A, and there is no measurable time that elapses between the first bolt and the second. Each bolt does what it says, and moves the target 10 feet behind where it was when the bolt hit, and both bolts hit it when it is at point A.

To do otherwise, you have to change the rules. You either have to change 'instantaneous' to be a length of time long enough to measure (which by definition would not be 'instantaneous'), or add words to Repelling Blast to make it move the target back by 10 feet for each bolt that hits (which it doesn't say), rather than by 10 feet if this casting of eldritch blast hits (which is what it does say).

Crawford acknowledged that Repelling Blast can push a target beyond the range of subsequent beams, but the other bolts from the same casting are not 'subsequent', because all the bolts from one casting exist in the same instant. The spell doesn't last for several instants over the course of a round (that would be a '1 round' duration); the entire spell lasts for but a single instant. That's why the bolts are simultaneous. It would be redundant to add that you have to choose all targets before you resolve any of them, because the duration of instantaneous already means that. Still, sometimes they add redundant language just to be sure we understand, like with magic missile over the editions, just like scorching ray in 3.5 and PF. 5E dropped the redundant language for scorching ray, but they didn't change what 'instantaneous' means, not how this spell works. 5E trusts us to understand....which is one big drawback of 5E, as demonstrated by threads such as this one.

For me it doesn't matter what Crawford thinks because if he runs it as some want to run it, it's going to seriously hurt high level play. Since I have more experience than Crawford seems to have dealing with high level mechanics and PCs using them, I'm going to go with my ruling. Crawford apparently hasn't dealt with PCs exploiting something like a 40 foot knockback to render a combat completely trivial against an extremely powerful foe. If eldritch blast shoots like a pulsing, no save knockback laser, that is going to lead to player mechanical exploitation that is seriously problematic not only to me as a DM, but to other players choosing melee options. I absolutely despise abilities that create headaches at the table. Imagine a Sorlock using Repelling Blast keeping something at 80 foot range while archers and ranged attackers kite it allowing for no attacks on the party. Just a warlock knocking the target back endlessly as it tries to close range to attack, while a ranged party exploits this no save knockback over and over again making any fight without powerful ranged capabilities a trivial exercise in futility and any character that wants to melee pointless. Abilities that expend no resource like a cantrip should not have this kind of power even when combined with an invocation, especially a low level invocation. When the game allows combat mechanics that allow a player to use an unlimited resource like a cantrip along with a powerful effect like a no save knockback, game balance is severely damaged.

 

[spectacle]

They pick the targets they cast the spell. For example, they don't get to hit the target, see if he drops, then hit him again if he doesn't. Nothing in the rules you listed changes this. Not everything needs to be spelled out to know how something works. Only a select group of rules lawyer players expect it. Most of us understand that casting a spell like scorching ray or eldritch blast requires you pick the targets prior to seeing the result of your attack.

Where do the rules say that? I'm not rules laywering here, I honestly don't see any reason to handle spell attacks different from weapon attacks unless the rules say so, and as far as I can see they don't do that anywhere. I assume that if spell attacks were meant to be handled differently than other attacks it would be written somewhere. Please don't accuse people of being rules-lawyers just because not everyone agrees with your personal opinion of what the rules should be.

EDIT, just noticed this bit you wrote "If your version were true, then a user of eldritch blast or scorching ray could keep the spell active and wait for new targets after he moved or wait until another round to expend other rays from the single casting."

LOL no, both of those are explicitly against the rules. You are only allowed to move between weapon attacks, and instantaneous spells don't last longer than the action used to cast them. But neither of those rules restrict how targeting happens while you're casting a spell.

 

[Noctem]

I can't believe this discussion is going again... We hashed this out on the wizards forums for over 30 pages!

1. Instantaneous duration on spells is clearly stated in the PHB description of what the word means as being a spell that is cast and resolves within a single turn. It also cannot be DISPELLED specifically because of that reason. It NEVER says anything about the spell having all of its attacks (if any) be simultaneous, require targets to be selected before a single attack is made and whatever other things some people in this thread have brought up. For all the people here saying they know how these things work it seems obvious to me that no one here is actually reading the PHB.

2. The only spell in the ENTIRE GAME that has all of its attacks resolve simultaneously is Magic Missile. The only reason why it works that way is because the spell itself specifically says that it works this way. The general rules, found on pages listed previously in this thread (notably by [MENTION=6780410]spectacle[/MENTION] who actually quoted the text itself), explain that for each attack made the attacker must follow 3 steps. The first step is picking a target. This is true for ANY attack being made in 5e! So no, you don't pick your targets immediately when casting the spell, you pick them when you make an attack. Eldritch Blast can have several attacks, just like someone with the Extra Attack feature using the Attack Action. Both of these would follow the Making an Attack section as follows:

Attack 1
Pick a target
Determine Modifiers
Resolve the Attack

Attack 2
Pick a target
Determine Modifiers
Resolve the Attack

And so on until the attacker has no attacks left.


3. Mike Mearls has publicly stated that he is not the guy to ask about rules. He has been found to be wrong about his answers over 50% of the time and most notably, Jeremy Crawford has had to recheck and give the correct answers. This is one of those cases. Anyone can check the PHB and clearly see that he's wrong. Why would Magic Missile have to specifically says its attacks occur simultaneously (in order to get around the general rules) if it already happened by default? This is an exception based game system by design, Magic Missile is creating an exception to the general rules. Specific exceptions always trump the general rules in this game system. That's how everything works. Jeremy Crawford has explained that attacks are sequential and always will be.

4. Eldritch Blast pushing a target 10 feet when it hits is simply to understand. You can only hit or miss with EB when you make an attack and each attack is a sequential event as shown above by the rules. Every time EB hits, you push 10 feet. Jeremy Crawford has also confirmed this via twitter and sage advice. The evocation does not limit you to once per use of the spell, every hit qualifies. Multiple attacks = multiple hits = multiple triggers. This is the same for ANY ability, feature, spell, etc.. that might have a specific trigger. Unless specifically stated, if you meet the trigger requirement multiple times you get the effect multiple times.


And finally, if you're going to discuss these game elements and the rules they interact with I would seriously expect at the very least that you would read the relevant rules text. I understand that houseruling is a thing, but that's not how I see you discussing this. You're presenting this as the rules when it is most obviously not so. An extrapolation of the rules that adds text to the rules can't be considered rules text. It's your houserule, so don't try to push it on other people.

 

[Celtavian]

Where do the rules say that? I'm not rules laywering here, I honestly don't see any reason to handle spell attacks different from weapon attacks unless the rules say so, and as far as I can see they don't do that anywhere. I assume that if spell attacks were meant to be handled differently than other attacks it would be written somewhere. Please don't accuse people of being rules-lawyers just because not everyone agrees with your personal opinion of what the rules should be.

It says it in the rules and the spell. It says use Cast a Spell action for casting any spell, even it requires an attack roll. A spell like scorching ray says you get to fire up to three fire rays from one casting. You don't get to use them next round. You don't get to pick the target after you know the result of the first hit. It says you get to fire three rays that require attack rolls. That means exactly what it says. Pick targets, fire three rays, roll attack rolls, resolve effect all at the same time.

Just as you used an example like magic missile to say they must say they fire simultaneously, I'll pick a spell like sunbeam to show what a spell looks like that gives multiple beams but allows you to use it over multiple rounds and targets.
The spell will tell you if you get to wait for the attacks to resolve before picking targets. If the spell does not clearly tell you to fire a ray, see if it hits, then pick targets, you have to pick them all at once. It's an implied part of the Cast a Spell action. Nowhere in eldritch blast or scorching ray does it say, "Fire ray, see what happens, fire next ray, see what happens.". The spell generates the rays or beams when you cast it. Period. It does nothing else. To see if the rays hit you make an attack roll. That is a property of the ray, not the spell. The effect of the spell is to generate all the rays. You have to pick targets when you cast the spell because the spell generates the rays when you cast it. Unlike swinging a sword which lets you pick a target each swing.

You're looking at the spell as giving you the ability to generate rays when you want to do so such as after the attack is resolved. That is not what eldritch blast or scorching ray do. The spell generates the rays and you have to know how you're going to use them immediately when you cast the spell because the rays are all generated immediately when the spell is cast...otherwise known as simultaneously. It doesn't say they pulse or go off 1 second after another or you can walk between beams or any text of the kind. It says you generate the rays and make the hit rolls. No other actions taken between. You can pick targets within range. They must be picked when you cast it with no other decision as part of the process other than casting the spell and available targets within range. You don't get to see damage done. You don't get to fire a beam, move, and pick another target. You don't get to fire two beams and ready a third beam when a target gets in range. You fire them all at once when you cast the spell. The spell text is very clear that there is no time separating when the beams go off. They all fire when you cast the spell on your turn at targets within range and you have to pick the targets before anything is resolved because the spell text does not allow you to do otherwise.

 

[Noctem]

Where do the rules say that? I'm not rules laywering here, I honestly don't see any reason to handle spell attacks different from weapon attacks unless the rules say so, and as far as I can see they don't do that anywhere. I assume that if spell attacks were meant to be handled differently than other attacks it would be written somewhere. Please don't accuse people of being rules-lawyers just because not everyone agrees with your personal opinion of what the rules should be.

EDIT, just noticed this bit you wrote "If your version were true, then a user of eldritch blast or scorching ray could keep the spell active and wait for new targets after he moved or wait until another round to expend other rays from the single casting."

LOL no, both of those are explicitly against the rules. You are only allowed to move between weapon attacks, and instantaneous spells don't last longer than the action used to cast them. But neither of those rules restrict how targeting happens while you're casting a spell.

The people saying these things are totally out of touch with the rules they are trying to discuss. What you've been quoting is complete proof of that. Keeping the spell active? What does that even mean within the context of the 5e rules? It's these kinds of invented terms that we have to watch out for because they lead to confusion for people reading these threads. You can't just invent rules to solidify your argument people, doesn't work that way.

Attacks are resolved in sequence. When you make an attack you pick the target of that attack. This is true for ALL attacks within 5e, they can be weapon, spell, item, etc.. it doesn't matter. All are handled the exact same way EXCEPT when specifically stated to work differently. Magic Missile is the exception, not the general rule.

Instantaneous duration is described in the PHB. GO READ IT. You will find that the description says that a spell with that duration cannot be dispelled, that it is cast and resolved within a short span of time which is why it can't be dispelled (but it can be Counterspelled!!!) and that's it. No simultaneous attacks nonsense, none of the other invented stuff that's being tied to this word. Don't fall for the houserules of other people like if it's rules text. read the PHB.