D&D 5E Warlock, Hex, and Short Rests: The Bag of Rats Problem

[Caliban]

Also good points. What of those who don't feel it IS an exploit, but actually "the way it's intended to work"?

I see it possible (though I haven't experienced it "live") that a sincere player might think it's meant to work that way.

I see it as a minor advantage that the warlock can make use of when circumstances allow for it (by "it" I mean hexing a creature after a long rest, reducing it to zero hp, and then immediately taking a short rest to regain your spell slot). It's by no means something that the warlock should expect to be automatic or always available. I put it up there with getting a critical attack - it's nice when it happens, it's certainly helpful, but not something you can count on getting for every fight.

 

[Caliban]

I have no problem with Warlock's maintaining concentration through a short (or long) rest to maintain Hex through its duration. Otherwise, why have that duration when the rests are somewhat expected.

I do have an issue with the rest and then I rest attitude. For me, the characters must actively break the previous rest before having another one. If there is no clear break of activity, it is still the same rest.

You don't think casting a spell and killing a creature are sufficient to end a rest? (If the PC's want it to end their rest, I mean.)

 

[Barolo]

You don't think casting a spell and killing a creature are sufficient to end a rest? (If the PC's want it to end their rest, I mean.)

This apparently breaks the rest not only of the warlock, but also of a lot of people IRL.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I see it as a minor advantage that the warlock can make use of when circumstances allow for it (by "it" I mean hexing a creature after a long rest, reducing it to zero hp, and then immediately taking a short rest to regain your spell slot). It's by no means something that the warlock should expect to be automatic or always available. I put it up there with getting a critical attack - it's nice when it happens, it's certainly helpful, but not something you can count on getting for every fight.

Yeah I see it that way too. As far as the resting goes, the main factor that would prevent it in my group would be that no one would want to wait another hour for the Warlock to have second breakfast after they already broke camp.

Sent from my LG-D852 using EN World mobile app

 

[Caliban]

Yeah I see it that way too. As far as the resting goes, the main factor that would prevent it in my group would be that no one would want to wait another hour for the Warlock to have second breakfast after they already broke camp.

And that is probably the most likely reason not to do it in most cases - no one wants to wait on the warlock. Not every day anyway.

There is a workaround (also when circumstances permit) - since the warlock refreshes most their class abilities on a short rest, there may be times when they have no need of a long rest (they are at full HP and full HD and haven't expended any 1/day mystic arcanum or invocations). Then they could sleep for 6 hours, spend an hour hunting down a small woodland creature, hex, kill, then short rest and join the rest of the party at the normal time.

 

[Sacrosanct]

As an against, no, I don't feel that the warlock would be overpowered if it worked. I dislike it because it's bad design, if intended, and metagamey (a term used here to mean thinking of the game as a game and acting accordingly).

No, not really. I think the Warlock is plenty powerful as is but this isn't a game breaking amount of power.



It's more that rules exploits ruin the game. Having someone in the group playing like that makes for a miserable experience.

These are sort of my thoughts as well. I don't think it ruins the game in any way. Then again, I don't think GWM or sharpshooter or the original ranger beastmaster ruins the fun of the game either. Comparing my DPR with the rest of the party or the monsters has no appeal to our group so it's not something important to us at all.

The reason I'm not favorable of the bag of rats is because it seems to be an exploit to me. Something rules-lawyery. And I loathe rules lawyers. Always have since day 1. I think the spirit of the game and the group's desires are more important than an exploit or particular rule.

So if someone wanted to bring a bag or rats to exploit this in our game, I'd allow if of course, but they'd have to actually role-play everything that comes with it (how did they get the rats, what affect would carrying a bag of rodents of unusual size have on the local populace?, just because they are in a bag doesn't make them immune to AoE that might affect the player (fireball, poison, etc)).

 

[Sacrosanct]

I do have an issue with the rest and then I rest attitude. For me, the characters must actively break the previous rest before having another one. If there is no clear break of activity, it is still the same rest.

Same here. I would not allow a short rest right after a long rest. The whole point of a short rest is to get a breather and regain some energy. If you just finished a long rest and haven't done anything to expend energy, then a short rest would do nothing. THAT seems way too metagamey for me.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

And that is probably the most likely reason not to do it in most cases - no one wants to wait on the warlock. Not every day anyway.

There is a workaround (also when circumstances permit) - since the warlock refreshes most their class abilities on a short rest, there may be times when they have no need of a long rest (they are at full HP and full HD and haven't expended any 1/day mystic arcanum or invocations). Then they could sleep for 6 hours, spend an hour hunting down a small woodland creature, hex, kill, then short rest and join the rest of the party at the normal time.

Yup. Especially if they get out of "latrine duty" and someone else is cooking!

Sent from my LG-D852 using EN World mobile app

 

[FitzTheRuke]

These are sort of my thoughts as well. I don't think it ruins the game in any way. Then again, I don't think GWM or sharpshooter or the original ranger beastmaster ruins the fun of the game either. Comparing my DPR with the rest of the party or the monsters has no appeal to our group so it's not something important to us at all.

The reason I'm not favorable of the bag of rats is because it seems to be an exploit to me. Something rules-lawyery. And I loathe rules lawyers. Always have since day 1. I think the spirit of the game and the group's desires are more important than an exploit or particular rule.

So if someone wanted to bring a bag or rats to exploit this in our game, I'd allow if of course, but they'd have to actually role-play everything that comes with it (how did they get the rats, what affect would carrying a bag of rodents of unusual size have on the local populace?, just because they are in a bag doesn't make them immune to AoE that might affect the player (fireball, poison, etc)).

Yeah. I think I mentioned it before - the only time I ever encountered any attemp at this was quite awhile ago in AL with a well-known Power Gamer and Rules Lawyer who I'm sure got the idea off an ops board.

It was the first I'd heard of it and I had an immediate negative reaction. If it had been presented reasonably and not so much a "gotcha - now my already op Warlock is even better!" I would have had a much softer reaction (I try to be a "yes" DM - or a "Yes... but consequences" DM.

One of the only conflicts I've had in 5e, actually.

My stance is "softer" now in that I think it IS intended to work, WHEN all the ducks line up.

Sent from my LG-D852 using EN World mobile app

 

[Ovinomancer]

How so? I can't really think on why it would be bad design and i would like to read your opinion, but it's no more metagaming than casting simulacrum and having it cast wish for you. A character would do so if he knows that its possible to do so. If i could, i would do IRL. If a character knows that something is possible and can be used, why not doing it? How is that metagaming (intending your meaning)?

If it was intended, then essentially it's a "jump through hoops to achieve expected power levels" thing. If a higher level warlock is expected to carry around a bag of rats, or a surrogate, and cast, kill, rest so that he's at the baseline intended power level, that's just bad design. Give the warlock hex for free at the beginning of the day and just move on. No need to waste play time to achieve maximum potential.

A character clearly knows its spells. Duration, time to cast and so on. He knows for certain what he needs to do to recover its resources. He would, at the very least, try or read if such a thing is possible with in world material.
People do something that it's not tought possible ALL THE TIME irl. Even without knowing what the rules behind something are.

It's an exploit that requires specific thinking (bag of rats is a clue) to achieve. If the rule wasn't in place, there's no way any warlock player would consider waking up, casting hex on a rat, killing the rat, and then taking a short rest. It's only the exploit that makes that attractive, and only if your interest is to game a minor benefit. Hence the thinking of the game as a game.