D&D General Warlocks: Charisma vs Intelligence

[Ashrym]

I voted CHA.

How intelligent a warlock is has nothing to do with how the spell powers are accessed. They may have done some research and study on how to get in contact with that power but that's not the same thing as powering the magic through intelligence.

The spells' power comes from the warlock's inner self while the patron is a source of instruction and advice. That's one of the key differences between a warlock and a cleric. Let wizards keep INT as the exception to arcane spellcasting as opposed to CHA as the standard.

 

[Xeviat]

A5e split it out to let you choose between the three, which I totally get.

Charisma for being witty and charming to make deals with Fey or to try and play hard to get with Fiends.

Intelligence to make your pacts through researching ancient entities and minor godlings and the like.

Wisdom to hold onto one's sanity or answer the questions of a Celestial or whatever...

But I always felt like Intelligence was the way to go. You don't have to be smart to sign a contract... but you -do- have to be smart to negotiate one where you come out well enough. You do have to be smart to research how to summon the entity to make that pact. You do have to be smart enough to remember all the relevant clauses in your fiendish contract to avoid winding up a Dretch or Lemure for failing to uphold your end to the letter.

Y'know?

A5E's choose it yourself approach is really great for creative players who like to theme things themselves.

But yeah, Intelligence just feels right to me. You might be using cheat codes to get your power, but you're cheating time by pursuing occult secrets. It's not that you couldn't do well at Wizard College, you couldn't be bothered (or you got seduced by that creepy book in the back of the library that's made out of angel skin?).

 

[Xeviat]

Actually, I like that. The pact's integrity is connected to the physical condition of the warlocks body. That works for me.

Works real well if the flavor is that the reason it's forbidden and dangerous is because it's literally DANGEROUS; that fiendish/aberrant/fey/forbidden magic can hurt you. Bad.

 

[Ashrym]

Works real well if the flavor is that the reason it's forbidden and dangerous is because it's literally DANGEROUS; that fiendish/aberrant/fey/forbidden magic can hurt you. Bad.

That sounds like a deal for power is foolish, not intelligent. ;-)

 

[Xeviat]

See, it's Int for me.

The entire narrative of how one finds how to access such eldritch powers is research and study. Intelligence is the Ability score for that. Charisma, I can see after the fact, where having a strong force of personality would be helpful to resist a Patron's influence... but there is no narrative or mechanical weight behind that justification. That's just not how the class works. There is no struggle that warrants needing a high Charisma. But you are always trying to research and unlock new powers. Sounds like you have to be smart to figure out those mysteries, not influential.

How cool would it be if the whole "devil on your shoulder" motif was mechanically backed up? Resisting the devil in your ear whispering evil suggestions to you, ignoring the gibbering of the Old One whose phone line you accidentally tapped, and keeping yourself from accidentally agreeing to worse from the fey...

 

[Micah Sweet]

A5E's choose it yourself approach is really great for creative players who like to theme things themselves.

But yeah, Intelligence just feels right to me. You might be using cheat codes to get your power, but you're cheating time by pursuing occult secrets. It's not that you couldn't do well at Wizard College, you couldn't be bothered (or you got seduced by that creepy book in the back of the library that's made out of angel skin?).

That's a great narrative, but I also like the idea of a character who gains arcane power through sketchy means that they otherwise simply lack the aptitude for; ie, jealousy. It's a classic for a reason.

Like the D&D version of Obadiah Shane from Iron Man.

 

[Xeviat]

I like Wisdom for my warlocks, but it could be interesting for certain pacts to use certain ability scores...

That could be interesting.

Hexblade/Blackrazor requires Strength to wield the blade, or Constitution to not lose your life to it
GOO requires Intelligence to understand the secrets or Wisdom to utilize the madness...

I just know if each had 1 stat, there'd be more arguments than if the whole class has only 1 stat or just was open like A5E.

 

[Xeviat]

That sounds like a deal for power is foolish, not intelligent. ;-)

Who is more foolish than someone with High Intelligence and low Wisdom? Heh.

 

[Ashrym]

Who is more foolish than someone with High Intelligence and low Wisdom? Heh.

Someone who's full of themselves with confidence and also low wisdom. ;-)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I completely understand the theme of a Con-based caster. But that is so Single-Ability-Dependent with the most powerful Ability. That one ability would cover their Spell Power, HP, Con Saves, and Concentration? It's a no-brainer. Theoretically someone might choose Int or Wis or Cha over Con, but that would not be the norm.

well this is an odd situation where we are playing 10 short games leading up to the campaign... so we are going to be making 11 characters. I had 1 player ask about making a con based hexblade so yes he would be con hp att w/weapon and spell + concentration... but even he was a maybe. the only others are 2 asked about making Int locks one a tome pact other I don't know pact