Warlock's Eldritch Blast?

[Hypersmurf]

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.

That's all of it. No attacks. Actions.

So if you use an AoO to attempt a Disarm, you don't provoke an AoO yourself, since you're making an attack without taking an action to do it?

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Except that being "armed" doesn't apply to ranged attacks. That's why bows still provoke.

That doesn't matter, if you are arguing from your earlier point that spells which involve ranged touch attack mechanics are touch spells, then they don't provoke AoOs. It says so right there - with a touch spell you are considered armed, and therefore don't provoke.

Now, if you'll admit to being incorrect in your assumption that a spell that involves a ranged touch attack is a "touch spell" (meaning "a spell with a range of touch"), then we can make progress.

In other words, you need to pick one or the other. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Thanee]

Except that being "armed" doesn't apply to ranged attacks. That's why bows still provoke.

But in that case it would, following your interpretations.

You cannot say that this part does not apply, but the part that seperates the action does, even though it speaks only of spells with a range of touch.

Besides... the "ranged attack" from Eldritch Blast does provoke in a way, it's not like you do not suffer from an AoO when you use it, because it is done within an action, that does provoke AoO. It just doesn't provoke the AoO itself, just the action it is part of is one that does provoke AoO.

It just provokes only one AoO, not two.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

So if you use an AoO to attempt a Disarm, you don't provoke an AoO yourself, since you're making an attack without taking an action to do it?

That's why Disarm is of the action type "varies".

Ranged attack is not of action type "varies".

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sithobi1]

You also cannot hold the charge for a ranged touch - they all require the roll as part of the spell, unlike spells that have a range of touch.

 

[Thanee]

I disagree with you there. If it was, then a full attack action with a bow would not provoke. Manyshot would not provoke.

In all honesty... that's what the rules say.

And I seriously doubt, they are intended to work that way. But I think that's only a problem with these parts, not with the general rule, which states over and over again, that it's the action that provokes.

You seem to be using that table as the only arbiter of what actions provoke, but then you say the table is wrong when you disagree with part of it.

No, if I was, I would say the above... yet, I say, that all actions involving ranged full attacks and Manyshot do provoke.

I think there is a general principle at work: Any ranged weapon attack provokes, unless you have something that specifically states otherwise. That fits the rules without having to declare any part of the table wrong.

Any action, that involves ranged weapon attacks normally provokes. That's something I would immediately agree upon.

Attack (ranged) provokes because it's a Standard Attack Action being used to make a ranged attack. Melee, ranged, or unarmed, it's still a Standard Attack Action. It's the type of attack you use it for that determines if an AoO is provoked.

Yes, it is. The type of attack is used to determine, whether the action does provoke an AoO. It's the action that provokes, not the attack, yet it's the attack, which determines, whether it does so (in case of actions, which involve attacks only, obviously).

And you are not actually touching them when you hit them with a melee touch spell either. The spell is touching them.

I think that very much involves physical touch, because spells have no physical body of themselves. You need to touch, make physical contact, to deliver them. But only in the case of melee touch spells. With ranged touch spells, the spell itself has a physical body... a ray.

This is why I hate it when discussions focus on the minutae of the rules and language, rather than the principles and intent behind the rules. You can render any sentence meaningless if you parse it close enough, or start bringing in idiomatic uses of the language as if they applied.

Yep.

However, I still think that any attack with a ranged weapon provokes, whether it is part of a spell, full attack action, or standard action. I was kind of hoping someone would convince me otherwise, because it would be good news for my sorcerer.

Well, you need to let the part sink in, that only actions provoke. Then you are half there.

Not ranged attacks provoke, but actions that involve ranged attacks.

Actions that involve both spellcasting and ranged attacks also provoke. It's still one action, so only one AoO, tho.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ranged attack is not of action type "varies".

Of course it is.

It can either be made as part of the standard action Attack (Ranged), or as part of the full round action Full Attack.

The type of action used varies.

Not ranged attacks provoke, but actions that involve ranged attacks.

Actions that involve both spellcasting and ranged attacks also provoke. It's still one action, so only one AoO, tho.

So do you consider that someone using a Full Attack action to disarm one opponent, make an unarmed trip on a second, a ranged attack on a third, and initiate a grapple with a fourth, provokes one AoO or four?

After all, the only action is "Full Attack"...?

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

Full Attack is a troublesome piece.

It says right there, that a Full Attack action does not provoke an AoO, and then goes on to say, that a disarm or grapple attack does, which can be made as part of a full attack.

Of course, ranged attack should have the action type varies. It's an "attack action" much like disarm or grapple, something that can be done with an attack. When making a ranged touch attack as part of a spell you do something different, tho. You do not attack (except in the sense as meant when breaking invisibility, of course), you cast a spell.

Full Attack would work well, if they had mentioned, that each attack of a full attack should be considered a seperate action when it comes to attacks of opportunity. Also an attack of opportunity should be seen the same as a standard attack action concerning whether it provokes AoO itself or not.

Still, I see a big difference between that and the attack roll part of a spell with a ranged touch attack.

Both the Touch spell and the Full Attack action have special rules, that make clear, that there are seperate entities bundled together (in case of the Touch spell it has been said often enough now, with the Full Attack, I am talking about the 5-ft. step, which you can take between any two attacks).

OTOH, there is no such mentioning for a ranged touch attack as part of a spell effect. It's just one entity, thus only one AoO.

Hope that it is at least halfway clear what I mean...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Now a good question would be...

Does a quickened Melf's Acid Arrow provoke an attack of opportunity?
Does a Scorching Ray provoke one (or up to three?) attack(s) of opportunity, if cast on the defensive?

I'd answer these with no.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Caliban]

In all honesty... that's what the rules say.

Only if you ignore the parts you don't like.

You know, the part of the rules you quoted that states that ranged attacks DO provoke.

And I seriously doubt, they are intended to work that way. But I think that's only a problem with these parts, not with the general rule, which states over and over again, that it's the action that provokes.

I'm sorry, your way requires to many exceptions to be made. It's not consistent.

Well, you need to let the part sink in, that only actions provoke. Then you are half there.

Except that's obviously wrong. Otherwise a Full Attack and a Manyshot would not provoke. You can't have it both ways Thanee.