D&D 5E Warlords of Krynn and the 4e class name in it...

Lyxen

Great Old One
"Come back from the light... we still need you" I don't see where a hero getting up (spend a healing surge heal and then take your action) is really in the need of magic. We watch Rocky, Hulk Hogan and many other 'realistic' performances come back from almost dead...

They are not dying. They don't have fatal wounds. And while a fighter might use his own reserves (see second wind below), healing another's fatal wounds is another story.

okay but unserstand that many of us see NO PROBLEM with non magic healing...

Yeah, right, "many"... And I think that many MORE have a problem with it. :p

by the way how do you handle Fighter Second Wind?

That's fine, it's personal, and it does not work if the fighter is really dying.
 

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Lyxen

Great Old One
Anyways, it's an easy patch. You don't need magic to give people temporary hit points, so the Warlord can hand out temporary hit points instead. Nobody has their fantasy challenged.

As mentioned, I played a Warlord (although I preferred my Swordmage) and enjoyed it, and I would welcome a more "commander-type" class, with the restrictions that honestly I don't see how it applies to undisciplined other PCs and how that makes one a "warlord". But the fact is that it worked well with 4e with the extremely tactical (but, to me, very artificial) combat, 5e has moved to a more abstract and narrative combat, and all the push/pull/slide abilities work much less well in Theater of the Mind.
 


James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
I really liked having a Warlord around, although I rarely played them myself. I preferred the Bard and the Cleric as Leaders personally.
 

Yes, through magic. :p

My problem is not a specific class having healing powers, it's using a power source which is specifically not magical to heal.
Why though? It's not like real wounds are dealt with HP damage. HP is something that you can recover with at most some bandaids/ointments.
 

Because only 4e has that specific note, and it's only a part of the HP.



Wrong, if it's the last ones that you have, it's not only debilitating but potentially fatal. And that's where the problem lies with healing those without magic.



How about "Dying" ? Because that is what happens when you are at 0 HP. How are you going to shout that one back at full capacity without magic ?



Magic. Once more, my problem is not classes having healing powers, it's classes based on specifically non-magical power sources doing that.



And I don't agree with that, HP perfectly simulate the "nonsense" of the genre.



Not enough information. Did Bob have 100 hp or 3 HP before being stuck ?



sigh He was not even a fighter anyway...

Amy strikes Bob for 5 HP of damage with her longsword.
Carl casts Healing Word and Bob regains 3 HP.

You can't "realistically" narrate this exchange even knowing the starting HP because HP don't actually MEAN anything, despite the insistence that this very gamist thing TOTALLY means meat. A HP is a HP is a HP. If you're describing them as life ending wounds, even at low HP, then that's your own fault. You don't get over a gut stab in an hour with some bandaids, or overnight. Your self-imposed lack of suspension of disbelief isn't a warlord design problem when you willingly buy into the other forms of HP stupidity.

D&D is trash at simulation. It doesnt matter if Bob has 100 hp or 1. Why do the gods like 1HP Bob more? I mean, surely that 5 damage on a 1 HP guy is a total evisceration. Why can a potion of healing put a 4 HP guy's guts back in, and dont even fix a 100 HP guy's scratches? Why is the guy with his guts ripped out not suffering from trauma and shock?

The only way HP work is through Schrodinger's Wounds, where they aren't anything until the critter actually dies.
 
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James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
Amy strikes Bob for 5 HP of damage with her longsword.
Carl casts Healing Word and Bob regains 3 HP.

You can't because HP don't actually MEAN anything, despite the insistence that this very gamist thing TOTALLY means meat. A HP is a HP is a HP. If you're describing them as life ending wounds, even at low HP, then that's your own fault. You don't get over a gut stab in an hour with some bandaids, or overnight. Your self-imposed lack of suspension of disbelief isn't a warlord design problem when you willingly buy into the other forms of HP stupidity.

D&D is trash at simulation. It doesnt matter if Bob has 100 hp or 1. Why do the gods like 1HP Bob more? I mean, surely that 5 damage on a 1 HP guy is a total evisceration. Why can a potion of healing put a 4 HP guy's guts back in, and dont even fix a 100 HP guy's scratches? Why is the guy with his guts ripped out not suffering from trauma and shock?

The only way HP work is through Schrodinger's Wounds, where they aren't anything until the critter actually dies.
Personally, I apply the concept of Bloodied here. Damage up to half your maximum hit points is just you juking and jiving and minimizing damage taken through all the factors hit points are stated to encompass.

Beyond that, I start describing actual cuts, scrapes, and wounds. But in heroic fiction, even a very wounded person can find the resolve to continue moving despite their wounds, or even seem to fall unconscious and revive. If someone doesn't like non-magical healing, you can just hand out lots of temporary hit points (even Inspiring Leader allows this).

Or require the use of a Healer's Kit (another non-magical way one can be healed thanks to a Feat). Or say you can't heal hit points below 50%.

I personally think the fiction totally allows for effective non-magical healing, but if people don't like it, they don't like it, even though you can point to rapid recovery times from resting as already being beyond reasonable.
 


Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I guess, if some reaaaaallllly dont care for non-magical healing, that the Marshal could focus more on AC/Saves buffs, conditions resistance and action-economy/initiative shenanigans, with a nice dose of THPs and increased max HP (ala Aid). Even things like auto-stabilization from Spare the Dying could be on the table, or at least advantage on death saves in an aura.

Its not like the meager healing of Inspiring Word was the the raison d'être of the Warlord in 4e. In fact, the class was rather weak on direct healing, both surge-fueled or surge-less.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
I guess, if some reaaaaallllly dont care for non-magical healing, that the Marshal could focus more on AC/Saves buffs, conditions resistance and action-economy/initiative shenanigans, with a nice dose of THPs and increased max HP (ala Aid). Even things like auto-stabilization from Spare the Dying could be on the table, or at least advantage on death saves in an aura.

Its not like the meager healing of Inspiring Word was the the raison d'être of the Warlord in 4e. In fact, the class was rather weak on direct healing, both surge-fueled or surge-less.
Indeed, which is why they got a Feat for more uses of Inspiring Word per day, because they lacked some of the extra goodies of other classes, like the Bard's free slide to get wounded characters out of tough spots.
 

They are not dying. They don't have fatal wounds. And while a fighter might use his own reserves (see second wind below), healing another's fatal wounds is another story.
I'm sorry but it's very strodinger... if they don't die they were not 'close enough to dieing'
Yeah, right, "many"... And I think that many MORE have a problem with it. :p
citation needed....
That's fine, it's personal, and it does not work if the fighter is really dying.
but if you roll a 20 on a death save (so 5% of the time... someone else can figure out the 3+ chances to get that 5%) you can just stop dieing and get up
 

As mentioned, I played a Warlord (although I preferred my Swordmage) and enjoyed it, and I would welcome a more "commander-type" class, with the restrictions that honestly I don't see how it applies to undisciplined other PCs and how that makes one a "warlord". But the fact is that it worked well with 4e with the extremely tactical (but, to me, very artificial) combat, 5e has moved to a more abstract and narrative combat, and all the push/pull/slide abilities work much less well in Theater of the Mind.
Yeah I would give buff extra move and extra attack granting abilities along with healing stuff.
 



Lyxen

Great Old One
I really liked having a Warlord around, although I rarely played them myself. I preferred the Bard and the Cleric as Leaders personally.

And I love them too as well, because they have their specificities, the religion of the cleric (I really like playing religious characters and the tensions that it generates) and the music/art of the bard which I really relate to as a musician. Actually, my favourite classes are the bard and the paladin, which is a great leader.

My go-to interpretation of warlords though come from the Wheel of Time, characters like Lan (honestly, can you get more heroic than "al'Lan Mandragoran, Lord of the Seven Towers, Lord of the Lakes, True Blade of Malkier, Defender of the Wall of First Fires, Bearer of the Sword of the Thousand Lakes, May He Sever the Shadow, Dai Shan, and known to the Aiel as Aan'allein, Tai'shar Malkier !") are exactly that, often both blademasters and master field commanders, although some are one and not the other.

The Wheel of Time RPG (based on 3e) did it rather well with him being an Armsman (fighter), with prestige classes like Warder (a bit mystical but not bringing magical powers) Blademaster (combat maneuvers) and Commander:

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Lyxen

Great Old One
Why though? It's not like real wounds are dealt with HP damage. HP is something that you can recover with at most some bandaids/ointments.

Of course you can, because it's exactly what happens in most media of the genre. You will fail at understanding hit points until you understand what HP simulates.

Amy strikes Bob for 5 HP of damage with her longsword.
Carl casts Healing Word and Bob regains 3 HP.

You can't "realistically" narrate this exchange even knowing the starting HP because HP don't actually MEAN anything, despite the insistence that this very gamist thing TOTALLY means meat. A HP is a HP is a HP. If you're describing them as life ending wounds, even at low HP, then that's your own fault. You don't get over a gut stab in an hour with some bandaids, or overnight. Your self-imposed lack of suspension of disbelief isn't a warlord design problem when you willingly buy into the other forms of HP stupidity.

Look, it the concept is that stupid to you, why are you even playing the game, since it's really the core of it ?

As for me, I absolutely stand by what Gygax wrote so long ago in the 1e DMG, which makes it really clear: "Damage scored to characters or certain monsters is actually not substantially physical — a mere nick or scratch until the last handful of hit points are considered — it is a matter of wearing away the endurance, the luck, the magical protections."

The beauty of the hit points is that they are FLEXIBLE and that they allow you to do the narration that you want depending on who receives what type of hit point damage at what part of the fight. Of course the orc receiving 12 points of damage will be gutted and dead instantly. Just as the 20th level fighter with 150 hp receiving 12 points of damage will probably just have a scratch, if that. Unless it's his last 12, in which case, again depending on the circumstances, it will be described certainly as life threatening, because, unattended, he has 50% chance to die.

And the same with the healing, the description is flexible.

D&D is trash at simulation.

No, it's not. It's trash at simulating the real world, but then it has never been the purpose.

It doesnt matter if Bob has 100 hp or 1. Why do the gods like 1HP Bob more? I mean, surely that 5 damage on a 1 HP guy is a total evisceration. Why can a potion of healing put a 4 HP guy's guts back in, and dont even fix a 100 HP guy's scratches? Why is the guy with his guts ripped out not suffering from trauma and shock?

Because it's fantasy and that's the way it works in books/movies of the genre. And if you don't like it, why are you even playing D&D ?

The only way HP work is through Schrodinger's Wounds, where they aren't anything until the critter actually dies.

They work through proper narration just like they do in all books/movies of the genre, but no author is stupid enough to create situations where people with dramatic life-threatening wounds recover when someone explicitly described as non-magical shouts at them. Because people find it silly, it breaks their suspension of disbelief.

Now, there is nothing wrong with playing D&D as purely gamist as you apparently do, but the system does actually fully support whatever narrative we want for those of us interested by it, as long as the system does not come to poke at us with things which look more silly than we can accept. I've not been the only one to say this, it's been a widespread criticism of the warlord, and I'm sorry, I'm not going to criticise your way of playing and your preferences, so please don't disparage ours either.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
I'm sorry but it's very strodinger... if they don't die they were not 'close enough to dieing'

They still were close, but it's a magical world and something happened. You are NOT constrained by anything in the real world, it's fantasy, you can invent whatever you want. It's just that saying SPECIFICALLY that it's NON-MAGICAL shouting is silly.

citation needed....

You first, since you are the one who claimed widespread support first. :p

but if you roll a 20 on a death save (so 5% of the time... someone else can figure out the 3+ chances to get that 5%) you can just stop dieing and get up

And if you roll a 1, you have chances to be dead instantly. It's all about drama and story, just like in the genre. But the genre does NOT make the silly mistake of attributing these recoveries or death to just specifically non-magically talking to the person, because it breaks the suspension of disbelief of most people.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
While it is intended to work that way, there's always going to be a corner case. For example, the Healer Feat allows you to apply a use of a Healer's Kit to heal 6-11 (or more) hit points to someone as an action, or bring them back up to 1 hit point if you attempt to stabilize.

Now obviously, yes, you are applying first aid, basic medicine, and probably smelling salts to the target, which is why this non-magical approach can save someone from dying.

However, it can also restore hit points to someone nowhere near dying, which means that your non-magical first aid is somehow renewing your "luck, skill, and other magical factors" that make up the majority of your HP pool.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
While it is intended to work that way, there's always going to be a corner case.

I completely agree, there will always be corner cases, but as clearly pointed out by the 5e design, the system is not there to deal with corner cases, it's the DM's job (otherwise the system becomes either unmanageably complex or too restrictive) and second hit points and healing are flexible enough in their concept to make corner cases rare.

For me, the problem with the 4e warlord is that it made suspension-of-disbelief-breaking "corner cases" the standard because you did not have multiple healers in your party, which meant that most of your healing was of that "suspension-of-disbelief-breaking" kind.

Which was all the more annoying since I liked the concept of the class, and it could have been solved by more buffing rather than through actual healing, which was for me lazy design.

Moreover, I enjoyed the class as long as I enjoyed the formality of combat in 4e, which did not last that long, and when I got tired of my powers just pushing miniatures around on a grid, I also got tired of that version of the warlord.

Now, the best warlord in our current campaigns are my Paladin in Odyssey of the Dragonlords because she is a natural commander although not relying on class powers, and a warlock in my Avernus campaign because she built on her pact with Mephistopheles to start commanding infernal and other troops and using her cunning, charisma and guile to keep them in check and make them do what she wants, both on the battlefield and in negotiations. These are real warlords, until I resuscitate the Wheel of Time RPG and get real commanders again.
 

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