Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[pemerton]

Agreed. But, one of the attractions of RPGs is the opportunity to reduce epics and heroism to precisely such pragmatic intellectual exercises.

And then we get the mantra that RPGs can't do stories . . .

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

Hobbits walking into Mordor inherently a less risky plan than having Eagles fly there? Not so much.

Again, by canon, the plan was not chose because it was deemed the wisest, only because it seamed so far fetched to work, that the Enemy would be slow to respond and even slower to figure out what was going on. It was blind luck (or divine providence) that it worked out so well, the Enemy figured it out only moments before the Ring was cast into the fire.

 

[Tony Vargas]

And then we get the mantra that RPGs can't do stories . . .

...like there's only one way to play.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm only arguing that the reason for not using the Eagles is not that sending Hobbits on foot was more likely to succeed. (Apparently, according to some, giant talking Eagles have to follow observed real world aeronautics, but Sauron only needs 30 minutes to create a a hurricane out of a calm day.) Not only is that silly conjecture, but it's just unnecessary: the reasons are the ones you allude to. Whether or not Gandalf & company "knew" that the free peoples had to do it for themselves, the storyteller knew.

You keep ignoring what was said at the Council of Elrond. Sauron would expect every reasonable way to come at him, and given that he knew about the eagles, he not only would be keeping watch, but would have his own flying beasties in the air ready for them. By flying all they do is serve his beasties eagle and hobbit chow, giving him the ring in the process. The eagles couldn't get close to any border of Mordor without being engaged and killed, and they would only die easier and faster at night.

I mean, if the only reason to not use the Eagles was that they'd get spotted as soon as they entered Mordor, why not at least ask them to fly Frodo and Sam to Ithilien and both save time and avoid a dangerous journey? Story, not ability.

That would have been much more reasonable, but still fails when put up against the Manwe prohibition and Eagle dislike of flying people arguments.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Again, by canon, the plan was not chose because it was deemed the wisest, only because it seamed so far fetched to work, that the Enemy would be slow to respond and even slower to figure out what was going on. It was blind luck (or divine providence) that it worked out so well, the Enemy figured it out only moments before the Ring was cast into the fire.

Um, I disagree a bit here. They didn't choose it because "it's so crazy it just might work". It was chosen as the "least bad" option. And, yes, it had the advantage that the Enemy never suspected it. But I would argue the part he didn't suspect is that they would try to destroy it rather than use it, not the means by which they got there, so Eagles flying Frodo to Mt. Doom would have been just as unexpected.

 

[pemerton]

...like there's only one way to play.

I agree there is more than one way to play the game.

But if you set out to play a Tolkienesque fantasy, and then go on to frame all your problems as primarily logistical/operational, and then reach the conclusion that RPGs don't do stories . . . well, I'm not sure the experiment warrants drawing such a broad conclusion.

 

[C-F-K]

Level 5 wizards? Sure, but give him credit for swinging a sword and staff too! So level 5/1 wizard fighter? Perhaps more fighter levels?

But still, compared with D&D spells he's a 5th level wizard.
In D&D we have 9 wizard levels from 1 to 9. In Tolkiens world we don't know, but it is said that Gandalf in one of the most powerful wizards. So perhaps Tolkien envisioned his world with only 5 levels (If the same mechanic of levels is used...). Simple said: In Tolkien's world, Gandalf is a wizard of the maximum level, and therefor a 9th level wizard compared to D&D.

But what do we really know? We know what spells he casts in the books, not the spells he would have known. Perhaps he saved his power word kill for when the feces really hit the turbine. Perhaps he lost his spellbook and had to start all over?

IMHO: A great and powerful wizard is one that can cast a high level spell, but chooses not to and still gets out alive.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

.... It was chosen as the "least bad" option. And, yes, it had the advantage that the Enemy never suspected it. But I would argue the part he didn't suspect is that they would try to destroy it rather than use it, not the means by which they got there.....

Well two proposed interpretations are:
1.

- They're largely independent, not necessarily "allied" with the wise, and hard to reach on a moment's notice.

and
2.

Sauron would expect every reasonable way to come at him, and given that he knew about the eagles, he not only would be keeping watch

And both have merit. Here is why:

"How far can you bear me? " I said to Gwaihir.

"Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens." Which contributes to he theory that the eagles were either pretty much autonomous into their actions and/or limited in their capability.

Also:

"Elrond summoned the hobbits to him. He looked gravely at Frodo. 'The time has come,' he said. 'If the Ring is to set out, it must go soon. But those who go with it must not count on their errand being aided by war or force. They must pass into the domain of the Enemy far from aid."

"'And I will choose you companions to go with you, as far as they will or fortune allows. The number must be few, since your hope is in speed and secrecy. Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor."

"I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.'"

Which kinda supports the secrecy/redemption line of though.

If Elrond himself thought the great Eldar armies of the first age would be useless on this quest, then probably the Eagles would not be of too much help either. Either because they were powerless against the Shadow or because the Enemy was aware of them.

EDIT: i think the movies might have altered our perceptions a bit with their influence

Level 5 wizards....


IMHO: A great and powerful wizard is one that can cast a high level spell, but chooses not to and still gets out alive.

Also, in 5E he might as well be at least lvl 7-9, depending on the choice of spells even above 11-12 and that is just the spell casting class.

 

[pemerton]

A somewhat random post, more-or-less apropos this thread:

On the tram coming home this evening, a group of three friends was debating who is the hero of LotR (the two candidates being Frodo and Sam). The discussion then turned to who is the best character (the one who had plumped for Sam nominated Galadriel; someone else thought Strider). As I was getting off, they were debating who was the truer or more noble of Boromir and Faramir - the Sam and Galadriel advocate was taking the side of Farimir, on grounds that he could have taken the Ring, but didn't. (The case against him seemed mostly to be that he was a "daddy's boy".)

So anyone, the posters in this thread are not the only people exercised by the proper interpretation of LotR.

 

[C-F-K]

Greatest Hero? Gollem!
He had to endure all the same as Frodo and Sam, but didn't complain as much.
And more so, he gave his life for his goal in the most noblest of ways.