Hence when I mean old middle and school
I would guess that Most DM of 5e are of the middle or new schools and the playtest Barbarian is designed for those schools of DMing.
D&D (2024) We don't talk about Barbie
I would guess that Most DM of 5e are of the middle or new schools and the playtest Barbarian is designed for those schools of DMing.
Kinematics
Hero
OK, just realized there's a little bit of crazy damage in here.
The Epic Boon of Irresistible Offense (EBIO) was kinda meh when I first looked at it, and it being the recommended boon for barbarians was just something I glanced over.
Supposing you do the normal Str priority progression. At level 8 you'll have 20 Str. Primal Champion at 18th level will raise it to 22. Level 20 boosts it to 24. And EBIO raises it 1 point further, to 25. All well and good.
Brutal Critical has been changed to be a flat addition of your barbarian level. So, 20 points at level 20.
EBIO adds your Str score (rather than modifier, as I first assumed) to attack rolls of 20 (ie: crits, assuming no special crit range modifiers). So that's another 25 damage. And it always ignores any damage resistance.
So your damage on a crit will be: 11-13 (average base+crit dice for a d10 or d12 weapon) + 7 (Str mod) + 20 (Brutal Critical) + 25 (EBIO) + 3 (magic weapon) = 66-68 damage. Max would be 75-79 (d10-d12).
Compared to current, which, with Brutal Critical, which would give 38-43 (d10-d12) average, up to 60-70 (d10-d12) max (extremely rare), and no guarantee of ignoring resistance.
You're only getting the huge damage once per turn (drop the 25 damage on a second crit on the turn), but the chances of multiple crits on a single turn are fairly low, so you'd rarely "miss out". And the first crit is always going to be well above even the max damage previously possible, with much lower variability due to fewer dice in the mix.
Further, this works better when you're using low damage weapons to get a third attack in, like the 1d4 of the bonus action attack of Polearm Master, or a 1d6 offhand scimitar. In the old system, those would generate average crits of just 22.5-27.5 (well below the 1d10-1d12 average of 38-43). In the new system, the averages are 60-62, only a small bit below the 66-68 of 1d10-1d12 weapons.
Anyway, this is only applying to crits, and only at 20th level, but it still feels like a nice boost.
The Epic Boon of Irresistible Offense (EBIO) was kinda meh when I first looked at it, and it being the recommended boon for barbarians was just something I glanced over.
Supposing you do the normal Str priority progression. At level 8 you'll have 20 Str. Primal Champion at 18th level will raise it to 22. Level 20 boosts it to 24. And EBIO raises it 1 point further, to 25. All well and good.
Brutal Critical has been changed to be a flat addition of your barbarian level. So, 20 points at level 20.
EBIO adds your Str score (rather than modifier, as I first assumed) to attack rolls of 20 (ie: crits, assuming no special crit range modifiers). So that's another 25 damage. And it always ignores any damage resistance.
So your damage on a crit will be: 11-13 (average base+crit dice for a d10 or d12 weapon) + 7 (Str mod) + 20 (Brutal Critical) + 25 (EBIO) + 3 (magic weapon) = 66-68 damage. Max would be 75-79 (d10-d12).
Compared to current, which, with Brutal Critical, which would give 38-43 (d10-d12) average, up to 60-70 (d10-d12) max (extremely rare), and no guarantee of ignoring resistance.
You're only getting the huge damage once per turn (drop the 25 damage on a second crit on the turn), but the chances of multiple crits on a single turn are fairly low, so you'd rarely "miss out". And the first crit is always going to be well above even the max damage previously possible, with much lower variability due to fewer dice in the mix.
Further, this works better when you're using low damage weapons to get a third attack in, like the 1d4 of the bonus action attack of Polearm Master, or a 1d6 offhand scimitar. In the old system, those would generate average crits of just 22.5-27.5 (well below the 1d10-1d12 average of 38-43). In the new system, the averages are 60-62, only a small bit below the 66-68 of 1d10-1d12 weapons.
Anyway, this is only applying to crits, and only at 20th level, but it still feels like a nice boost.
Kinematics
Hero
Thoughts on interactions between the new Rage rules and other subclasses.
With the new duration of Rage, I thought it was a nice benefit for the level 14 Eagle Totem feature, which gives you a flying speed while you're raging. Only one minute of flight was always disappointingly short, but ten minutes which can be out of combat (bonus action sustain) means it's nicely useful for other challenges.
On the other hand, there's the 3rd level Eagle Totem feature, which allows you to dash as a bonus action. The problem is that if you really need that extra speed, you're likely not attacking, which means the only way to sustain Rage is to use a bonus action. Conflict of interest. You can't use the dash and rage at the same time, and if you lose the rage, you lose the bonus action dash as well.
Ancestral Guardian's 6th level Spirit Shield uses a reaction, and doesn't explicitly require combat. You could use it to reduce damage taken by the party if they were, for example, passing through an area that caused damage. Just have them go through one at a time to make sure you could keep using your reaction for it.
Storm Herald's Storm Aura (3rd level) requires using a bonus action to activate, which conflicts with maintaining Rage if you can't attack. Well, the aura is 10' around you, so the damage effects are probably going to happen at the same time you're attacking, however the effects themselves can't maintain the Rage since you don't make an attack roll or force enemies to make a save when you use the effect. Also, the Tundra effect gives temp HP, which you'd want to use when around your allies, and thus potentially limited in usability.
Path of the Zealot: Fanatical Focus's ability to reroll failed saving throws will continue to be useful when used in non-combat challenges.
Zealous Presence requires a bonus action, but should likely be used in the middle of combat, so you should be able to attack during that turn as well. Unlikely to clash.
With the new duration of Rage, I thought it was a nice benefit for the level 14 Eagle Totem feature, which gives you a flying speed while you're raging. Only one minute of flight was always disappointingly short, but ten minutes which can be out of combat (bonus action sustain) means it's nicely useful for other challenges.
On the other hand, there's the 3rd level Eagle Totem feature, which allows you to dash as a bonus action. The problem is that if you really need that extra speed, you're likely not attacking, which means the only way to sustain Rage is to use a bonus action. Conflict of interest. You can't use the dash and rage at the same time, and if you lose the rage, you lose the bonus action dash as well.
Ancestral Guardian's 6th level Spirit Shield uses a reaction, and doesn't explicitly require combat. You could use it to reduce damage taken by the party if they were, for example, passing through an area that caused damage. Just have them go through one at a time to make sure you could keep using your reaction for it.
Storm Herald's Storm Aura (3rd level) requires using a bonus action to activate, which conflicts with maintaining Rage if you can't attack. Well, the aura is 10' around you, so the damage effects are probably going to happen at the same time you're attacking, however the effects themselves can't maintain the Rage since you don't make an attack roll or force enemies to make a save when you use the effect. Also, the Tundra effect gives temp HP, which you'd want to use when around your allies, and thus potentially limited in usability.
Path of the Zealot: Fanatical Focus's ability to reroll failed saving throws will continue to be useful when used in non-combat challenges.
Zealous Presence requires a bonus action, but should likely be used in the middle of combat, so you should be able to attack during that turn as well. Unlikely to clash.
Chaosmancer
Legend
So, I like some of the barbarian changes, but mostly... I'm not impressed.
Rage damage is too low, and it never grows to a point of being significant. I know most barbarians go with big, two-handed weapons, but if you go with a sword and board style then your rage is the exact same as the Dueling Fighting Style.
I did an initial run over the damage for the Ranger, Paladin, Fighter and Barbarian, and Barbarians often have lower damage than everyone else because they lack styles and lack ways of adding damage as a base line. Now, this completely changes if you are looking at the Berserker, but the Berserker isn't the only barbarian subclass we are going to have. So either all barbarians need subclasses that deal damage, or they fall behind fairly quickly.
The weapon masteries are fun, but they aren't really making a huge difference compared to the other classes which will have them.
Now, maybe this isn't a big deal, because barbarians are TOUGH. Relentless rage is good, rage for half damage is good... but there is a problem here. These all require rage. Primal Knowledge ALSO requires rage. And rage only lasts 10 minutes. Sure, while raging I can have my barbarian swap his +1 Dex for his +3 strength, and I get advantage (no proficiency though most likely) but if the stealth mission takes longer than 10 minutes I've burned a rage for a single skill check. And I only have 2 rages at level 2. So that is HALF my combat ability for a decent chance on a single skill roll? That's not a good trade. In fact, it doesn't become a good trade til level 17.
The other problem with Barbarians is they have big flash damage moves that only happen on crits, and this is terrible. Even with advantage, crits are not common. But it is the only base damage increase they get, which seems like it is good on paper, see the above analysis of how terrifying those level 20 crits could potentially get, but then in practice they edge out things that could be actually useful.
Overall, I think we are better then where we started, but I want to be better still. Especially since I don't want everything tied to rage, which is needed for combat.
Rage damage is too low, and it never grows to a point of being significant. I know most barbarians go with big, two-handed weapons, but if you go with a sword and board style then your rage is the exact same as the Dueling Fighting Style.
I did an initial run over the damage for the Ranger, Paladin, Fighter and Barbarian, and Barbarians often have lower damage than everyone else because they lack styles and lack ways of adding damage as a base line. Now, this completely changes if you are looking at the Berserker, but the Berserker isn't the only barbarian subclass we are going to have. So either all barbarians need subclasses that deal damage, or they fall behind fairly quickly.
The weapon masteries are fun, but they aren't really making a huge difference compared to the other classes which will have them.
Now, maybe this isn't a big deal, because barbarians are TOUGH. Relentless rage is good, rage for half damage is good... but there is a problem here. These all require rage. Primal Knowledge ALSO requires rage. And rage only lasts 10 minutes. Sure, while raging I can have my barbarian swap his +1 Dex for his +3 strength, and I get advantage (no proficiency though most likely) but if the stealth mission takes longer than 10 minutes I've burned a rage for a single skill check. And I only have 2 rages at level 2. So that is HALF my combat ability for a decent chance on a single skill roll? That's not a good trade. In fact, it doesn't become a good trade til level 17.
The other problem with Barbarians is they have big flash damage moves that only happen on crits, and this is terrible. Even with advantage, crits are not common. But it is the only base damage increase they get, which seems like it is good on paper, see the above analysis of how terrifying those level 20 crits could potentially get, but then in practice they edge out things that could be actually useful.
Overall, I think we are better then where we started, but I want to be better still. Especially since I don't want everything tied to rage, which is needed for combat.
Kinematics
Hero
So I watched Treantmonk's analysis of the playtest barbarian today, and while he made some good points on the class features, I thought his damage comparison was a bit lacking.
So I put together some comparison numbers myself. I used a +1 weapon because the comparison is done at level 13, and I felt there ought to be at least that much by that level. It also raises accuracy from 60% to 65%. As such, it's not directly comparable to Treantmonk's results, but it should be fine for the purposes of what I'm doing here.
I'll start with a PHB barbarian. I'm not using Variant Human, so no free feat at 1st level. He gets a choice of Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master at level 4, and then uses the level 8 and 12 ASIs to boost Strength to 20.
PAM is slightly better than GWM unless you can use Frenzy, in which case GWM is far better. GWM would probably also use a d12 or 2d6 weapon for slightly more base damage, in which case using Reckless Attack would likely put it slightly ahead of PAM.
Now the new system.
The playtest barbarian picks up the level 1 feat of Savage Attacker just to see how impactful it will be, then picks up Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, and Charger at levels 4, 8, and 12 in order to raise Strength to 20 (starting from 17).
Charger is used 100% of the time, with the assumption that you can always move away, then run back in for the attack. He'll eat the opportunity attack for another chance to use Retaliation, though I didn't include Retaliation damage in the totals. If you don't want to do that, you can drop the DPR totals appropriately. It's only about 7% of damage if removed entirely, or less if you use it sporadically.
For the halberd, I will get numbers both for when Cleave can't be used (eg: a solo boss), and with an assumption of about a 40% chance of triggering it.
Also trying with a glaive to see the effects of Graze.
So the glaive (Graze) is slightly better without Reckless Attack, while the halberd is slightly better with it, assuming there's a decent chance to make use of it. If there's no chance of triggering Cleave, the glaive will always be better (obviously).
Savage Attacker is a very minor contributor to damage, so I'd probably drop it for a more utilitarian 1st level feat (eg: Skillful, Tough, Lucky, Alert, maybe Tavern Brawler).
One might also consider using a pike, for Push. (I'd also wish for a maul with Push, as I like that image better.) You'd get the same damage numbers as the halberd without Cleave, but wouldn't need to run away before running back in for Charger. Just hit the enemy once to knock it back, and then charge after it for some bonus damage. Plus you can leave the enemy at a range to trigger a PAM opportunity attack at the end.
Summary:
The playtest version not using Reckless Attack is on par with the PHB version using Reckless Attack. The playtest using Reckless Attack handily beats the PHB using Frenzy.
The difference between Cleave and Graze is relatively minor here, though Cleave should always edge out Graze if you have decent opportunities to use it. May not be so useful if you're blinded, though, and can't find the targets.
So I put together some comparison numbers myself. I used a +1 weapon because the comparison is done at level 13, and I felt there ought to be at least that much by that level. It also raises accuracy from 60% to 65%. As such, it's not directly comparable to Treantmonk's results, but it should be fine for the purposes of what I'm doing here.
I'll start with a PHB barbarian. I'm not using Variant Human, so no free feat at 1st level. He gets a choice of Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master at level 4, and then uses the level 8 and 12 ASIs to boost Strength to 20.
Code:
Halberd +1 (old)
Acc: 65% acc, 5% crit
Reckless: 87.75% acc, 9.75% crit
GWM: 40% acc / 64% acc
Choice of PAM or GWM
Att: 5.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) = 14.5 * 65% = 9.425 + 5% * 5.5 * 2 = 9.975
Reckless: 14.5 * 87.75% = 12.72375 + 9.75% * 5.5 * 2 = 13.80
PAM Att: 2.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) = 11.5 * 65% = 7.475 + 5% * 2.5 * 2 = 7.725
Reckless PAM: 11.5 * 87.75% = 10.09125 + 9.75% * 2.5 * 2 = 10.58
GWM Att: 5.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) + 10 (GWM) = 24.5 * 40% = 9.8 + 5% * 5.5 * 2 = 10.35
Reckless GWM: 24.5 * 64% = 15.68 + 9.75% * 5.5 * 2 = 16.75
Frenzy: 5.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) = 14.5 * 65% = 9.425 + 5% * 5.5 * 2 = 9.975
Reckless Frenzy GWM: 24.5 * 64% = 15.68 + 9.75% * 5.5 * 2 = 16.75
GWM Bonus: 5.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) = 14.5 * 65% = 9.425 + 5% * 5.5 * 2 = 9.975
Reckless GWM Bonus: 24.5 * 64% = 15.68 + 9.75% * 5.5 * 2 = 16.75
PAM, plain: Att + Att + PAM = 9.975 + 9.975 + 7.725 = 27.675
PAM, reckless: Reckless + Reckless + Reckless PAM = 13.80 + 13.80 + 10.58 = 38.18
GWM, plain: GWM Att + GWM Att + 9.75% (crit trigger) * GWM Bonus = 10.35 + 10.35 + 0.9725625 = 21.67
GWM, reckless: Reckless GWM + Reckless GWM + 18.55% (crit trigger) * Reckless GWM Bonus = 16.75 + 16.75 + 3.11 = 36.61
GWM, frenzy: Reckless GWM + Reckless GWM + Reckless Frenzy GWM = 16.75 + 16.75 + 16.75 = 50.25PAM is slightly better than GWM unless you can use Frenzy, in which case GWM is far better. GWM would probably also use a d12 or 2d6 weapon for slightly more base damage, in which case using Reckless Attack would likely put it slightly ahead of PAM.
Now the new system.
The playtest barbarian picks up the level 1 feat of Savage Attacker just to see how impactful it will be, then picks up Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, and Charger at levels 4, 8, and 12 in order to raise Strength to 20 (starting from 17).
Charger is used 100% of the time, with the assumption that you can always move away, then run back in for the attack. He'll eat the opportunity attack for another chance to use Retaliation, though I didn't include Retaliation damage in the totals. If you don't want to do that, you can drop the DPR totals appropriately. It's only about 7% of damage if removed entirely, or less if you use it sporadically.
For the halberd, I will get numbers both for when Cleave can't be used (eg: a solo boss), and with an assumption of about a 40% chance of triggering it.
Code:
Halberd +1 (new)
Acc: 65% acc, 5% crit
Reckless: 87.75% acc, 9.75% crit
Frenzy: 3d6 (10.5)
Crit: +13
PAM, GWM, Charger, Savage Attacker
Att: 5.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) = 14.5 * 65% = 9.425 + 5% * (5.5 + 13) = 10.35
Reckless: 14.5 * 87.75% = 12.72375 + 9.75% * (5.5 + 13) = 14.5275
PAM Att: 2.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) = 11.5 * 65% = 7.475 + 5% * (2.5 + 13) = 8.25
Reckless PAM: 11.5 * 87.75% = 10.09125 + 9.75% * (2.5 + 13) = 11.60
Cleave Att: 5.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 3 (rage) = 9.5 * 65% = 6.175 + 5% * (5.5 + 13) = 7.1
Reckless Cleave: 9.5 * 87.75% = 8.33625 + 9.75% * (5.5 + 13) = 10.14
GWM: 5 * 99.8% = 4.99
Frenzy: 10.5 * 99.8% = 10.479
Savage: (7.15 - 5.5) * 87.75% + (3.13 - 2.5) * 7.96% = 1.498
Reckless Savage: (7.15 - 5.5) * 98.5% + (3.13 - 2.5) * 1.32% = 1.634
Charge: 4.5 * 65% = 2.925
Reckless Charge: 4.5 * 87.75% = 3.95
Plain, no Cleave: Att + Att + PAM Att + GWM + Savage + Charge = 10.35 + 10.35 + 8.25 + 4.99 + 1.498 + 2.925 = 38.363
Reckless, no Cleave: Reckless + Reckless + Reckless PAM Att + Frenzy + GWM + Reckless Savage + Reckless Charge = 14.5275 + 14.5275 + 11.60 + 10.479 + 4.99 + 1.634 + 3.95 = 61.708
Plain, 40% Cleave: Att + Att + PAM Att + (95.7% * 40%) (trigger) * Cleave + GWM + Savage + Charge = 10.35 + 10.35 + 8.25 + 38.28% * 7.1 + 4.99 + 1.498 + 2.925 = 41.081
Reckless, 40% Cleave: Reckless + Reckless + Reckless PAM Att + (99.8% * 40%) (trigger) * Cleave + Frenzy + GWM + Reckless Savage + Reckless Charge = 14.5275 + 14.5275 + 11.60 + 39.92% * 10.14 + 10.479 + 4.99 + 1.634 + 3.95 = 65.756Also trying with a glaive to see the effects of Graze.
Code:
Glaive +1 (new)
Acc: 65% acc, 5% crit
Reckless: 87.75% acc, 9.75% crit
Frenzy: 3d6 (10.5)
Crit: +13
PAM, GWM, Charger, Savage Attacker
Att: 5.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) = 14.5 * 65% = 9.425 + 5% * (5.5 + 13) = 10.35 + 5 (graze) * 35% = 12.1
Reckless: 14.5 * 87.75% = 12.72375 + 9.75% * (5.5 + 13) = 14.5275 + 5 (graze) * 12.25% = 15.14
PAM Att: 2.5 (base) + 1 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) = 11.5 * 65% = 7.475 + 5% * (2.5 + 13) = 8.25 + 5 (graze) * 35% = 10
Reckless PAM: 11.5 * 87.75% = 10.09125 + 9.75% * (2.5 + 13) = 11.60 + 5 (graze) * 12.25% = 12.21
GWM: 5 * 99.6% = 4.98
Frenzy: 10.5 * 99.6% = 10.458
Savage: (7.15 - 5.5) * 87.75% + (3.13 - 2.5) * 7.96% = 1.498
Reckless Savage: (7.15 - 5.5) * 98.5% + (3.13 - 2.5) * 1.32% = 1.634
Charge: 4.5 * 65% = 2.925
Reckless Charge: 4.5 * 87.75% = 3.95
Plain: Att + Att + PAM Att + GWM + Savage + Charge = 12.1 + 12.1 + 10 + 4.98 + 1.498 + 2.925 = 43.603
Reckless: Reckless + Reckless + Reckless PAM Att + Frenzy + GWM + Reckless Savage + Reckless Charge = 15.14 + 15.14 + 12.21 + 10.458 + 4.98 + 1.634 + 3.95 = 63.512So the glaive (Graze) is slightly better without Reckless Attack, while the halberd is slightly better with it, assuming there's a decent chance to make use of it. If there's no chance of triggering Cleave, the glaive will always be better (obviously).
Savage Attacker is a very minor contributor to damage, so I'd probably drop it for a more utilitarian 1st level feat (eg: Skillful, Tough, Lucky, Alert, maybe Tavern Brawler).
One might also consider using a pike, for Push. (I'd also wish for a maul with Push, as I like that image better.) You'd get the same damage numbers as the halberd without Cleave, but wouldn't need to run away before running back in for Charger. Just hit the enemy once to knock it back, and then charge after it for some bonus damage. Plus you can leave the enemy at a range to trigger a PAM opportunity attack at the end.
Summary:
Code:
PHB:
PAM, plain: 27.68
PAM, reckless: 38.18
GWM, plain: 21.67
GWM, reckless: 36.61
GWM, frenzy: 50.25
Playtest:
Halberd, no Cleave: 38.363
Halberd, Reckless, no Cleave: 61.708
Halberd, 40% Cleave: 41.081
Halberd, Reckless, 40% Cleave: 65.756
Glaive: 43.603
Glaive, Reckless: 63.512The playtest version not using Reckless Attack is on par with the PHB version using Reckless Attack. The playtest using Reckless Attack handily beats the PHB using Frenzy.
The difference between Cleave and Graze is relatively minor here, though Cleave should always edge out Graze if you have decent opportunities to use it. May not be so useful if you're blinded, though, and can't find the targets.
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