D&D 5E We need more Int/Str/Cha saving throws

Li Shenron

Legend
Just run a quick check on how many spells in the current 5e package use which saving throw...

There are about 16 spells requiring a Dex ST.
There are about 14 spells requiring a Wis ST (half of them at levels 1-2).
There are about 10 spells requiring a Con ST.
There are about 5 spells requiring a Cha ST.
There are 0 spells requiring a Str ST.
There are 0 spells requiring an Int ST.

I guess the main reason for this unbalance is legacy from previous editions.

I really hope they will change the ST for some of these (shouldn't be difficult to find a few spells with a Wis ST that can reasonably changed to Int or Cha) and that they will strive to design new spells using the least represented ST.

I don't necessarily want all the 6 ability scores to be very equally represented, but at least not as unevenly as currently!
 

log in or register to remove this ad





Li Shenron

Legend
I think illusions should force an Int save. Harkens back to immunity to illusions for high intelligence back in 1e.

Yes, this is a good idea.

I would say also that paralysis/petrification spells could be changed from Constitution ST to Strength ST, as if the attempt at resisting or breaking off the effect could be more "active" than "passive".

Charms and even more compulsions could require a Charisma ST.

I also noticed that there are several spells requiring different ST with different abilities. This can be interesting, for example a blast spell could require a Dex ST to dodge and/or a Con ST to withstand the effect. But OTOH this might needlessly complicate things and open room for stat-dumpers.
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
To see if there was any patterns we might discern, here is a handy guide to the current spell list:

Banishment - Cha - Your force of will overcomes theirs
Blade Barrier - Dex - They avoid force blades
Burning Hands - Dex - They avoid fire
Charm Person - Wis - You twist their mind to like you
Cause Fear - Wis - You frighten them
Chain Lightning - Dex - They avoid magical lightning
Cloudkill - Con - They resist toxic gases
Color Spray - Wis - You disorient them (slow/weaken or confuse or frighten)
Command - Wis - You control them
Cone of Cold - Con - They resist cold
Destruction - Con - You kill them with death
Disintegrate - Dex - They avoid your death ray
Dominate - Cha - You control them
Earthquake - Con, Dex - They concentrate, they avoid falling over, falling rocks and/or falling into a hole
Finger of Death - Wis - You kill them with death
Fire Storm - Dex - They avoid fire
Fireball - Dex - They avoid fire
Flame Strike - Dex - They avoid fire
Flesh to Stone - Con - They avoid turning to stone
Harm - Con - You nearly kill them with death
Hold - Wis - You paralyse them
Holy Aura - Con - You blind them
Holy Word - Cha - You banish, blind, deafen, stun or kill them
Ice Storm - Dex - They avoid hail stones
Lightning Bolt - Dex - They avoid a lightning bolt
Meteor Swarm - Dex - They avoid fiery hail stones
Irresistable Dance - Wis - You make them dance, dance magic dance
Phantasmal Force - Wis - They see through your illusion
Planar Shift - Dex, Cha - They avoid being touched, your force of will overcomes theirs
Polymorph - Wis - They resist transformation
Prismatic Spray - Dex, Con, Wis - They avoid your disco lights, turning to stone or blindness
Sanctuary - Wis - You make them think twice about attacking
Sound Burst - Con - They resist thunder
Stinking Cloud - Con - They resist toxic gases
Suggestion - Wis - You control them
Sunbeam - Con - They resist your radiant beam
Sunburst - Con - They resist your radiant burst
Thunderwave - Dex - They avoid forceful thunder
Trap the Soul - Wis - You trap their soul
Wall of Fire - Dex - They avoid fire
Web - Dex - They avoid your webs
Zone of Truth - Cha - You make them tell no lies

There are some glaring inconsistencies. Sometimes you avoid beams/rays with a Dex save, other times it's just assumed to have hit and you make a different save (Destruction/Finger of Death). Damage/element type seem to have no bearing on the type of save made (sound burst vs. thunderwave). It's unclear what the separation of the mental abilities is (Int doesn't make an appearance, but Cha tends to be against outsiders, Wis against people). Almost all area effects are Dex saves, whether instantaneous or sustained (Fireball/Firestorm).

To me, when figuring out what saving throw a spell ought to use I would ask the following questions:

Does it affect the target's physical form, or their mind?
If you're unsure (Hold Person), do you think Wolverine or Professor X ought to be more resistant?

Physical:
Can you evade the effect through dodging the worst of, or all of it? Try Dexterity.
If there's no hope of dodging the effect, will it change/damage/destroy your physical form or make it difficult to perform certain actions? Try Constitution for the former, Strength for the latter.

Mental:
Would the effect only work on a concious target? Try Intelligence.
Does the effect involve the target's soul, or just their mind? Try Charisma for the former, Wisdom for the latter.

Hold Person, as an example, is unclear. You might say it's a physical force, and thus Strength, or a mental effect, and thus Wisdom.
Various elemental spells could do with tidying up. Either decide whether these things are Dex/Con based on the spell form (long-lasting area vs. instant or ray), or damage type (thunder seems more Con, fire more Dex and to me cold more Con and lightning (which doesn't act like real lightning at all) more Dex).
Illusions clearly require the target to be concious and should use Intelligence.
Charm probably doesn't affect the soul, whereas Dominate probably does, since it can make someone do horrible things. Perhaps define what your soul means, or what Charisma is vs. Wisdom, something is needed here.
Web is irritating, since it should just hit everyone and allow a strength save, but has a fiddly strength check if you fail your dex save.
Color/Prismatic spray should just assume you're hit and make you save appropriately.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
What about charisma saving throws against charm or fear effects? One of them, not both.

I guess there's some overlapping there between Int and Wis and Cha, that doesn't make it straightforward...

Illusions: is recognizing them more a matter of perception (Wis) or reasoning (Int)? It's a similar ambiguity as Spot vs Search. I'd go with Int at least just because Wis is largely dominant at the moment.

Charms: resisting could be a matter of being of stronger personality (Cha) but also you don't always need to be charismatic yourself to be a "you don't fool me" type.

Compulsions: definitely Cha, it's essentially my personality against yours. In the past Wis also included willpower tho, but I'm not sure if that could be shifted to Cha.

Fear: tricky one... in real life you can escape/calm fear with reasoning, but in general I'd say that actually the dumber the more fearless... So I'd toss between Wis and Cha and frankly I don't know which one would be best. Is a fearless person more likely to be also a perceptive one or someone who gets the others to do his bidding?
 


Obryn

Hero
I think they'd be better off scaling it back to something like fort/ref/will. Those are intuitive in a way a "charisma save" isn't.

Mechanically, I also think having six stat-based saves makes too much of a MAD situation and makes it particularly tricky to use low-Int or low-Cha monsters.

(I also like consistency, and prefer static defenses over saves because "actor rolls" is nice. But that's a separate topic.)

-O
 

Remove ads

Top