D&D 5E We need more Int/Str/Cha saving throws

[billd91]

The sacred cows should be the narrative of the game -- the fact that wizards throw fireballs and shoot lightning bolts -- not the game mechanics themselves.

I disagree with that. The sacred cows of D&D should be among what separate it from the other fantasy role playing games. And that includes mechanics like saving throws, armor classes that cause attacks to miss, hit dice and hit points, character classes, vancian spell casting, and so on. There's room for narrative elements too, but I can make a wizard who throws fireballs and shoots lightning bolts in Fantasy Hero. I can take any narrative element from D&D and mimic it elsewhere with other mechanics but that doesn't make that other game D&D.

 

[mlund]

Strength Saves resist physical force & restraint. Example: Entangle, gust of wind, thunderwave.
Dexterity Saves resist things where dodging, ducking, or diving can help. Example: Fireball, dart traps, pit traps.
Constitution Saves resist poison, dismemberment, pain, and illness. Example: Lightning bolt, stinking cloud, stunning fist.
Intelligence Saves resist illusions. Example: Phantasmal force.
Wisdom Saves resist madness, strong emotions, and confusion. Example: Cause fear, confusion, feeblemind.
Charisma Saves resist charms, compulsions, and effects that try to make you follow orders, rather than simply feel a certain way. Example: Charm person, dominate monster, suggestion.

I'm pretty well sold on this association of stats-to-saves (though not on the damage side of the equation).

I think I'm a fan of the general notion of active-vs.-passive scenarios for different ability checks mentioned earlier in the thread too. In particular, I think it sorts out the Int/Wis issue as it pertains to Spotting / Searching / Hiding scenarios. Neither stat governs a character's physical sensory attributes. Being deaf and blind does not modify you Wisdom or Intelligence score, but they ruin your physical perception.

I'd argue that Intelligence and Wisdom both reflect different means of processing what your senses tell you - types of discernment. Wisdom is the most likely candidate for passive discernment, while Intelligence is better suited for active scrutiny of a specific object, area, or person. Both depend on input, though. They kick in after the stimulus. If someone is under the effects of both Silence and Invisibility you can't spot them or hear naturally unless they interact with their environment is ways that create perceivable reactions (like footprints in dust, opening a closed door, etc.) - it doesn't matter how high you Wisdom or Intelligence go.

So assuming that there is some stimulus reaching the character in question that they are capable of sensing, then picking up on what it means is a matter of a Wisdom check if you are unaware or otherwise occupied and Intelligence if you are actively searching for whatever is hidden.

I'd rather leave the physical end of perception to attributes, feats, backgrounds, etc. - things like "Keen Senses," "Sharp-eyed," "Hard of Hearing," etc. These provide guidelines to DMs to decide that while a half-deaf gnome alchemist (too many close proximity explosions) gets no roll to hear something, his human friend might check at Disadvantage and the elf with Keen Senses would roll normally.

I'm also partial to the idea of things like optional feats that allow you to fight off some failed-save-suckage effects out-of-stat as an action. Perhaps calling upon your prodigious physicial strength or strength of will / ego to fight through pain (normally Con) or madness (normally Wisdom), or perhaps using an esoteric mental exercise (Intelligence) to block out your emotions (normally Wisdom) or rationalize away a self-defeating compulsion (normally Charisma). These off-type secondary / substitute saving throws would be special abilities specific to characters (gained via feats, class levels, etc.), not the general rules for effects.

That way "Save vs. Wisdom," or "Save vs. Strength" don't have to cover or exclude every edge case imaginable for every character - just the "normal" ones.

- Marty Lund

 

[Weather Report]

I have long advocated spreading the save love over the scores, not the almighty Dex/Con/Wis Triumvirate, they are petering in some Cha action, but we need more Str and Int saves. Charm could be Cha, as other posters have suggested.

Also, remove Dex mod from Initiative, Dex is not the only thing to effect initiative in combat.

 

[Warbringer]

I'd tweak Stormonu's suggestions a bit. Saves should be used to resist effects, not damage.

I like the premise, but is 5d6 damage no save too powerful for 9th level (maybe not)

This is why I prefer the 4e attack vs defense and ongoing is a "save". Cover makes it harder to miss, the reflexes of the opponent harder to target, rather than avoiding a massive ball of fire filling 33,000 sq feet.

Maybe, and this is essentially the same thing, you take half the damage automatically, make an active check (standard action) to save against the rest at the start of your round. Evasion gives a change to avoid the immediate damage, but uses your reaction move.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well my fireball would do 3d6 damage, save to avoid catching on fire (1d6 each round thereafter, with a free save each round to put yourself out).

I suppose cover helping you not be hurt does make sense. Good point.

 

[Sadrik]

Saves are not right as they are shown. I think everyone agrees with that. I think that narrowing the scope of wisdom and dexterity would be really good in accomplishing the goal of fixing stats.
1. Skills and feats/maneuvers that double as saves should become saves. There should not be a two tiered save system. Diplomacy should go against a cha save for instance, slipping falling while climbing should be a str save and resisting a bluff should be a cha save. Additionally if someone is trying to do a maneuver against you with a feat (trip, disarm etc.) you should make a save to resist, str save or dex save or whatever. I don't care if the effect comes from a skill or a spell or a feat, when it affects you you should grab your die and resist with a save, not with some other wonky skill or feat subsystem.
2. Armor bonuses should add to your saves to reduce damage from area spells. No longer should the armored guy be hosed when the fireball goes off. All that armor should reduce his chance to take damage. So if adding armor to your dex save you could add either your armor bonus or your dex whichever is higher. I can see armor being lower a bit to make this work. This would lower the net utility of dex, a good thing.
3. Wisdom should be the perception and awareness stat and that is it. Int and cha should subsume everything else into them. This leaves a very important stat that could be enhanced ever so slightly. A perception save, would be a very useful thing. I think initiative modifier could be moved here. Wisdom is noticing things, Intelligence is figuring out things and Charisma is resisting mental effects. I think it clearly delineates the differences in this case as to which save applies when. Surprise check is now a wisdom save. Notice the rogue sneaking by is a wisdom save. So as you can see some of the skills which were set up as a resist skill (spot listen etc) could be wisdom saves. some classes or races might have a bonus to certain types of wisdom saves, similar to dwarves having a bonus to certain types of constitution saves (poison).
4. Dexterity is the attack stat, roll an attack and you use your dexterity. Some types of weapons you can use strength. Basically this is the same as before just flipped a little to make the understanding easier for new players. no need to separate out the ranged attacks vs. melee attacks and then further separate out which are finesse and which are not. Instead dex to hit then some weapons allow you to use strength to hit. Much simpler.
5. Spells should always use a save do not use a skill check or some other funky spell special rule. Just a save. No 30% chance of this if this or that. Or roll a spot check to notice X, or whatever. It should be a save. period.
6. Spells with attack rolls. If a spell will be limited by an attack roll it should still get a save to reduce effect. Yeah. Just because you hit does not mean you should auto effect them. I personally like spells to auto hit in most cases. No need to target where your fireball or flame strike hits.
7. A spells listing should always say what happens when you make the save to resist it. In some cases it might be 1/2 damage, in some cases it might be you are dazzled for a round, or a drowsy feeling washes over you. At minimum a description with no actual game impact should happen. This goes a long way into the developing the narrative elements of the game. Not only describe the effects of a failed save but also when a save is made.
8. saves with less binary effects, save or die, pass or fail. Fail or mitigate is better, many spells are set up this way already but many should include a mitigating factor, even if it is only description as I described above.

 

[Li Shenron]

5. Spells should always use a save do not use a skill check or some other funky spell special rule. Just a save. No 30% chance of this if this or that. Or roll a spot check to notice X, or whatever. It should be a save. period.

<snip>

If you propose to substitute spot/listen checks with a Wis save, I think that's quite clever... I like that! After all, the Basic and Standard game do not really have spot/listen skills anymore, they are just Wis checks, but the different between a check and a save is usually only that a check is initiated by the character while a save is triggered by an external event, otherwise they could really be the same thing (unless the designers artificially introduce a difference such as having race/class bonuses to only checks or only saves but not both).

 

[DEFCON 1]

WIS save for spot/listen is an interesting idea.