D&D 5E We need more Int/Str/Cha saving throws

[Li Shenron]

I kind of like the proposed split between "active" stats (that you make checks with) and "passive" stats (that you make saves with).

So, for Illusions: you wouldn't make an Int save. Rather, the illusion would work...unless you made an Int check. The spell would demand that you do something active to contra-dict it, it's not something you're going to notice without effort.

Similarly with spells that, say, entangle you. Rather than make a Str save, you make a Str check to free yourself, on your turn. You must do something active to contradict it.

Even those few spells that are Cha saves right now might be better served either being Wis saves, or being flipped to being Cha checks that can negate the spell.

The only difference between a check and a save is that a check takes an action, while a save doesn't. This usually means in practice that (usually) ST are done immediately while checks are done at your next turn and cost your turn action.

But essentially they are the same thing i.e. a roll of the same relevant ability, so if some spells allow a Str or Int or Cha check rather than a save, that would be totally fine for me!

The only thing I'm really concerned about, is that the game desperately needs all 6 abilities to be significantly useful and desirable for everyone, in order to avoid the incredibly boring and lame practice of stat-dumping.

 

[Li Shenron]

Ok, now I've done a quick check over monsters abilities in the bestiary (excluding spells) and this is the result:

There are about 22 monster's special abilities requiring a Dex ST. (+11)
There are about 35 monster's special abilities requiring a Wis ST. (+4)
There are about 38 monster's special abilitiesrequiring a Con ST. (+12)
There are about 10 monster's special abilitiesrequiring a Cha ST.
There are 12 monster's special abilitiesrequiring a Str ST.
There are 5 monster's special abilitiesrequiring an Int ST.

I think we can clearly see the same pattern.

Str and Cha are also better represented and even Int appears but do not be deceived!

- about half of the times the Str check is not really mandatory because the target can choose either Str or Dex to get free, since basically the special ability is just an improved grappling

- the numbers for Cha include at least 4-5 Dragon abilities that can be ended with either a Cha or Wis check

- all Int ST but one are once again really either Int or Wis, the only genuinely Int-only ST is the Illithid's Mind Blast

When you have "either", it is totally pointless from the point of view of avoid stat-dumping. It only occasionally helps a character who might have even better Int (i.e. a Wizard) or Cha (e.g. Bard) than Wis, but it doesn't really avoid stat-dumping, it actually encourages it even more.

 

[billd91]

When you have "either", it is totally pointless from the point of view of avoid stat-dumping. It only occasionally helps a character who might have even better Int (i.e. a Wizard) or Cha (e.g. Bard) than Wis, but it doesn't really avoid stat-dumping, it actually encourages it even more.

I can certainly agree with that.

 

[Dausuul]

Part of the problem is that people have expectations that certain stats will be used for certain types of saves. I'd be okay with Charisma being used for "willpower" saves, but I think it would throw a lot of 3E/Pathfinder players for a loop.

So I think a good solution would be to look for unusual cases where expectations aren't so entrenched. I've already mentioned using Charisma to save against energy drain, or the D&DN equivalent (loss of maximum hit points). In general, I'd suggest using Charisma as the defense against "soul-killer" attacks; things that assault your essence or cause fear/despair. These attacks tend to be extremely nasty, so even if you don't have to use Charisma as often, you'll be very glad you have it.

Strength, of course, should be the go-to saving throw against forced movement and restraints. I'm not as concerned about Strength because it's used for encumbrance and is the default melee combat stat. So many classes use Strength that IMO it's less of a problem if some classes (e.g., wizards) feel free to dump it.

That leaves Intelligence. The obvious choice here is to make Intelligence the anti-illusion save, but not a lot of monsters use illusions, and the consequences of failing an illusion save are seldom dire. More interesting would be Intelligence as the anti-psionics save. Aberrations tend to pack a lot of psionic abilities and many of them are pretty nasty, and it would add a nice touch of distinctiveness to psionics as compared to magic. Yet another avenue to explore would be using Intelligence instead of Dexterity for initiative; this would have the side benefit of slightly reducing the overwhelming value of Dexterity.

 

[zoroaster100]

It seems to me Gust of Wind should definitely have been a Strength save.

 

[Li Shenron]

It seems to me Gust of Wind should definitely have been a Strength save.

You've been listened to

There are about 27 spells requiring a Dex ST. (+11)
There are about 18 spells requiring a Wis ST. (+4)
There are about 22 spells requiring a Con ST. (+12)
There are about 5 spells requiring a Cha ST.
There are 0 spells requiring a Str ST.
There are 0 spells requiring an Int ST.

Latest packet checked:

There are about 25 spells requiring a Dex ST. (-2)
There are about 24 spells requiring a Wis ST. (+6)
There are about 21 spells requiring a Con ST. (-1)
There are about 4 spells requiring a Cha ST. (-1)
There are about 6 spells requiring a Str ST (+6)
There is 1 spell requiring an Int ST. (+1)

I tried to actually include both ST and "checks", the latter often required to get free from the effect after the spell has started, but I think these checks should also count. This fact at least makes Strength somewhat represented.

I still think it would be better if:

Command/Suggestion spells would require a Charisma ST/check instead of Wisdom, as in a "contest of personality" between the caster and the target

Illusion/Confusion spells would require an Intelligence ST/check instead of Wisdom, as if the target tries to use reason to escape the effect

Hold spells and Petrification spells would require a Strength ST/check to resist being stuck or get free later instead of Wisdom and Constitution respectively

 

[Wulfgar76]

Latest packet checked:
<snip>

Just chiming in to say I agree with you 100%.

Stormonu's list remains the best way to do it:

Strength Saves - resist - physical force -example: Gust of Wind
Dexterity Saves - resist - things that can be dodged -example: Fireball
Constitution Saves - resist - things that harm the body -example: Stinking Cloud
Wisdom Saves - resist - things that harm the mind or will -example: Cause Fear
Intelligence Saves - resist - illusions -example: Phantasmal Force
Charisma Saves - resist - charms and compulsions -example: Charm Person

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Wisdom Saves - resist - things that harm the mind or will -example: Cause Fear
Charisma Saves - resist - charms and compulsions -example: Charm Person

Wait...don't charm and compulsions "harm the will" in that they take a way your will? What's the difference between forcing you to feel fear and forcing your to sit down?

I think it might be worth dividing them into "spells that actually do damage to the mind" and spells that take away your choice. Though if we divided them this way there would be nearly NO Wis saves.

I don't think there is a very good dividing line between the two saves because there's never been a good dividing line between the two stats.

Wis is your will power...so anything that makes you act in a way you wouldn't normally should be a Wis save.

Cha is your...force of will...so anything that makes you act in a way you wouldn't normally should be a Cha save.

All the other stats have more logical uses. Str saves to avoid anything that restrains you or prevents you from moving. Con for anything that changes or harms your body directly. Dex for getting out of the way of things hurled at you. Wis for Willpower/mind control. Int for anything that tricks you or deceives you.

But, as usual. Cha is a stat that is nearly useless.

 

[Li Shenron]

Wis is your will power...so anything that makes you act in a way you wouldn't normally should be a Wis save.

Cha is your...force of will...so anything that makes you act in a way you wouldn't normally should be a Cha save.

There is undoubtedly some ambiguity, so the resolution has to be a design choice. Whatever the choice, there is always possible criticism, but that to me means we could just do either way.

And since Wisdom includes perception (which is a big thing affecting all 3 pillars), I think a design choice which would move willpower from Wis to Cha would be good to better balance the two, without being as massive as other changes (eg making Perception its own 7th stat).

 

[Stalker0]

And since Wisdom includes perception (which is a big thing affecting all 3 pillars), I think a design choice which would move willpower from Wis to Cha would be good to better balance the two, without being as massive as other changes (eg making Perception its own 7th stat).

Also, since wisdom is so critical for surprise with the readiness checks, it would still get use even if the saving throws were taken away i believe.