D&D 5E We need more Int/Str/Cha saving throws

[Warbringer]

It starts with better "keyword" definition of how the ability modifiers interact with the game. Then align those "keywords" to keywords in spells and monster abilities and design around that intersect. The keywords do not have to surface in the rules, but remain a hidden design layer.

It feels like today we have a shopping list approach to building spells and abilities that then just let the balance or imbalance "far where it may"

 

[Wulfgar76]

And since Wisdom includes perception (which is a big thing affecting all 3 pillars), I think a design choice which would move willpower from Wis to Cha would be good to better balance the two, without being as massive as other changes (eg making Perception its own 7th stat).

I tend to agree. The split between Wisdom and Charisma saves would be a nuanced, inexact science, but I'd like to see...

Wisdom Saves resist: fear, hold, confusion, slow

Charisma Saves resist: charm, dominate, suggestion, command

So Charisma is the ability that resists 'mental control and compulsions. Wisdom resists fear, and is a catch-all for effects that don't belong in any other category.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Wisdom Saves resist: fear, hold, confusion, slow

I like the idea of Str saves for things like hold or slow. Anything that tries to stop you from moving, the stronger you are the easier it is to break out. It works this way in movies much of the time.

Although the idea that Wis resists things that make you FEEL something rather than control your actions. Spells like Rage or Fear of Confusion could be great candidates for Wis. I like the idea that you are wise enough to resist overwhelming emotion.

 

[RangerWickett]

- nt -

 

[RangerWickett]

I'd tweak Stormonu's suggestions a bit. Saves should be used to resist effects, not damage.

Fireball should hit an area and deal 3d6 fire damage, Dex save to avoid catching on fire. Lightning bolt should streak through people instantaneously and deal 3d6 lightning damage, Con save to avoid being dazed. Thunderwave should deal 3d6 thunder damage, St save to avoid being knocked to the ground and hurled away.

Strength Saves resist physical force & restraint. Example: Entangle, gust of wind, thunderwave.
Dexterity Saves resist things where dodging, ducking, or diving can help. Example: Fireball, dart traps, pit traps.
Constitution Saves resist poison, dismemberment, pain, and illness. Example: Lightning bolt, stinking cloud, stunning fist.
Intelligence Saves resist illusions. Example: Phantasmal force.
Wisdom Saves resist madness, strong emotions, and confusion. Example: Cause fear, confusion, feeblemind.
Charisma Saves resist charms, compulsions, and effects that try to make you follow orders, rather than simply feel a certain way. Example: Charm person, dominate monster, suggestion.


What about things that suck your soul? I'm inclined to just go for the current "You take damage that reduces your maximum hit points by an equal amount, so no healing until X." Where X would probably be 'receive magical healing,' or perhaps 'spend a week purifying your body.'

 

[billd91]

I'd tweak Stormonu's suggestions a bit. Saves should be used to resist effects, not damage.

Fireball should hit an area and deal 3d6 fire damage, Dex save to avoid catching on fire. Lightning bolt should streak through people instantaneously and deal 3d6 lightning damage, Con save to avoid being dazed. Thunderwave should deal 3d6 thunder damage, St save to avoid being knocked to the ground and hurled away.

I dunno. Save for half damage is iconic D&D. I'd be sad to see it go.
Plus it would undermine the humor of a Tshirt I must get my hands on some day "Jesus Saves... and takes half damage".

 

[Li Shenron]

I'd tweak Stormonu's suggestions a bit. Saves should be used to resist effects, not damage.

Fireball should hit an area and deal 3d6 fire damage, Dex save to avoid catching on fire. Lightning bolt should streak through people instantaneously and deal 3d6 lightning damage, Con save to avoid being dazed. Thunderwave should deal 3d6 thunder damage, St save to avoid being knocked to the ground and hurled away.

Strength Saves resist physical force & restraint. Example: Entangle, gust of wind, thunderwave.
Dexterity Saves resist things where dodging, ducking, or diving can help. Example: Fireball, dart traps, pit traps.
Constitution Saves resist poison, dismemberment, pain, and illness. Example: Lightning bolt, stinking cloud, stunning fist.
Intelligence Saves resist illusions. Example: Phantasmal force.
Wisdom Saves resist madness, strong emotions, and confusion. Example: Cause fear, confusion, feeblemind.
Charisma Saves resist charms, compulsions, and effects that try to make you follow orders, rather than simply feel a certain way. Example: Charm person, dominate monster, suggestion.


What about things that suck your soul? I'm inclined to just go for the current "You take damage that reduces your maximum hit points by an equal amount, so no healing until X." Where X would probably be 'receive magical healing,' or perhaps 'spend a week purifying your body.'

I like these suggestions, although having absolutely no way to avoid spell damage at least partially is quite scary, maybe too good compared to weapon attacks?

 

[RangerWickett]

Magic missile. It's just a matter of how much 'no avoid' damage you offer.

Though if I had my druthers, the spellcasting would change substantially. Make spells more powerful, but make them take more time. If you can swing a sword and deal 10 damage to one creature every round on average, then a wizard who can hit multiple people with a fireball might also be able to do 10 damage, but have to spend one round conjuring the ball of flame, then throw it next round. Or when you cast a lightning bolt you first creature a storm cloud overhead, or wreath yourself in lightning, and then you fling it on the second round.

And of course, if you get stabbed after the first round, before the second, your spell might go off on you instead.

The sacred cows should be the narrative of the game -- the fact that wizards throw fireballs and shoot lightning bolts -- not the game mechanics themselves.

 

[Warbringer]

Magic missile. It's just a matter of how much 'no avoid' damage you offer.

Though if I had my druthers, the spellcasting would change substantially. Make spells more powerful, but make them take more time. If you can swing a sword and deal 10 damage to one creature every round on average, then a wizard who can hit multiple people with a fireball might also be able to do 10 damage, but have to spend one round conjuring the ball of flame, then throw it next round. Or when you cast a lightning bolt you first creature a storm cloud overhead, or wreath yourself in lightning, and then you fling it on the second round.

And of course, if you get stabbed after the first round, before the second, your spell might go off on you instead.

The sacred cows should be the narrative of the game -- the fact that wizards throw fireballs and shoot lightning bolts -- not the game mechanics themselves.

I loved that the old Lankhmar source books did this. Casting was 1 step higher I think; so a 3 segment spell took 3 rounds to cast; a 1 round spell, 1 turn...

 

[Li Shenron]

Magic missile. It's just a matter of how much 'no avoid' damage you offer.

Well but there is quite a difference in feeling between having one unavoidable damage spell in the core game and all of them