We went from 5 saving throws to...64!

[Vigilance]

There's no reason that a d20 system composed of skills and feats, and little else, couldn't work, and work well.

But why saves in particular, is what I'm wondering.


Given what saves represent, why do they automatically advance? Why don't certain skills? Why does BAB? Why do HPs? Why does spellcasting? Why do ability scores?

Tying BAB progression, Save progression, class skills and number of skills to class makes archetypes a real part of the game.

Unless you want to get rid of archetypes and make a class-less skill point based system, then you'd need to allow the "BAB skill" to advance faster for Fighters and the "Reflex skill" faster for ROgues, in which case you're running in circles, doing a lot of work to accomplish the same things in different ways.

 

[shilsen]

OK, nobody's seeing the redundancy of having both a skill and a saving throw mechanic? Saving throws really represent "nothing." Why the seperate mechanic? Why not just make them part of skills?

In 1E there were 5 saving throws. Then we went to 3 saving throws and 61 skills (see the latest character sheet on wotc.com.

Perhaps it's just not dawned on anyone else yet, but the redundancy just sticks out.

It would be like having hit points and dodge points.

As the previous posts should indicate, it's simply that what you see as redundancy doesn't seem so to others, because there's a huge difference between what skills represent and what saves do.

Maybe it just hasn't dawned on you yet.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Tying BAB progression, Save progression, class skills and number of skills to class makes archetypes a real part of the game.

Unless you want to get rid of archetypes and make a class-less skill point based system, then you'd need to allow the "BAB skill" to advance faster for Fighters and the "Reflex skill" faster for ROgues, in which case you're running in circles, doing a lot of work to accomplish the same things in different ways.

Oh, I agree.

I was just wondering why Emirikol wanted to do this with saves, more than with any of the other currently non-skill features of the system.

I'm actually in favour of having saves, and BAB, and so on. But if one, why not the rest. . . that was my query. Well, a few whys, really.

 

[Darkwolf445]

They already have a game where skills do everything (Attack, defend, etc.). It is called Rolemaster. Why needlessly complicate the game more? Saves are drawn from your chosen class because it DOES make sense and it is easy.

I see your point.
I just don't think it belongs in D&D, in any edition. There are other games that handle it just fine that way.

 

[Cabral]

Tying BAB progression, Save progression, class skills and number of skills to class makes archetypes a real part of the game.

I'm not particularly in favor of skilled based everything, but to add a counterpoint, tying character concept to class restricts versatility of the classes and limits player creativity.

Unless you want to get rid of archetypes and make a class-less skill point based system, then you'd need to allow the "BAB skill" to advance faster for Fighters and the "Reflex skill" faster for ROgues, in which case you're running in circles, doing a lot of work to accomplish the same things in different ways.

In both cases, you can make skill rank = level and then reference level against the BAB/save progression of the current class. Thus a cleric with two skill ranks in "Base Attack Bonus" has a 1.5 BAB, while a fighter with two ranks would have a +2 BAB. If the cleric multiclassed into wizard and picked up one more BAB rank, he would gain +0.5 BAB (total of +2.0).

Sure, it's a little round about but not overly so. The real problem is the max ranks of 4 for level 1 and the potential effects on feat and PrC prerequisites.

 

[Emirikol]

In looking at this whole issue, I wonder if the skill system for D&D isn't still in its infancy regarding system evolution. Attacks and saves have evolved. Skills haven't really since being introduced in the DUngeoneers survival guide. THere are still too many (redundancy) and are a pain in the butt during leveling.

jh

 

[Felix]

THere are still too many (redundancy) and are a pain in the butt during leveling.

For whom?

For the player who has to worry about 5 or so skill points every other month? Because leveling doesn't happen that often given the life of the character.

Or for the DM who is statting NPCs? Pick a number of class skills equal to the class' skill points + INT and there you are.

This is a pain in the butt?

 

[Glyfair]

In looking at this whole issue, I wonder if the skill system for D&D isn't still in its infancy regarding system evolution. Attacks and saves have evolved. Skills haven't really since being introduced in the DUngeoneers survival guide. THere are still too many (redundancy) and are a pain in the butt during leveling.

Too many? Maybe. I don't think it's the issue you are presenting it as. Maybe 4-6 skills could be profitably eliminated or subsumed into other skills. I wouldn't consider than an "evolution.''

Maybe more skills could be combined, but then you'd need a new system to deal with those characters who would differ between the skills. For example, hide and move silently are often considered to be two skills that should be combined. In practice, certain characters are great at one and not the other (the stereotypical Kwai Chang Caine type monk). A subsystem would differentiate this (maybe giving monk a bonus to sneak when trying to move silently). I think this system in the long term would cut add to complexity rather than remove it (although some characters would be more simple).

 

[Gentlegamer]

I like the saving throw system of C&C. There are 6 save categories . . . based on each of the six attributes (no dump stats!).

 

[QuaziquestGM]

To see an example of a d20 system that uses attack and defense as skills, see Link West or Silver Age Sentinels.

The system used in these products is designed for customizing "super hero" type PCs (even though Link West is a Western setting game). The Attack and defense skills are divided between meley, Brawl, Archery, Unarmed and Special Attack (super power like eye beams and such). These skills are not linked to any ability.

I haven't had a chance to use either product, so I can't comment on how well it works in play.