Weapon damage scaling and multiclassing

[Xeviat]

Hello everyone. From day one, I didn't like the way Extra Attack worked. It hurts multiclass warriors when multiclass spellcasters got a big improvement this time around. Simply having Extra Attack stack could ALMOST work, but a 5/5/5/5 would end up with 5 attacks and that would be too much (now if every class had a level 0 ...)

I also dislike how Opportunity Attacks effectively grow weaker for classes like the Fighter but remain the same for others like the Rogue. Spellcasters' cantrips continue to improve, leading to a situation where a 2 level dip in Warlock nets you a great ranged attack for certain builds (bard, paladin, sorcerer?).

I'd like to see what other's ideas on this are. I don't think it's a solid enough idea for a DM's Guild product, so I'll work on it here and put it together for free.

I'd like to replace Extra Attack with more unique abilities. At their base, weapon attack damage will scale by a "weapon die" at levels 5, 11, and 17. Sneak attack will have to lose a die at these levels, but hey, a rapier wielding rogue will get will get a little bump.

Basic weapon maneuvers could also be added, where you give up one or more weapon dice to do different things, like add prone or push to an attack, or give up one die to attack two targets.

Instead of Extra Attack, I'd like to give out unique abilities. But what could they be?

Barbarian: simple raw damage? Damage on a miss?

Valor Bard: cha to damage? Bonus damage to allies?

Fighter: weapon specialization/mastery. Small damage bonus and small attack bonus.

Monk: maybe they can hang onto extra attacks and have that be their schtick.

Paladin: start giving out radiant damage earlier.

Ranger: ugh ...

Favored Soul Sorcerer: radiant damage?

Blade Warlock: just give them melee Eldritch blast and be done with it.

Blade singer Wizard: int damage earlier, other things later?

The biggest change would be increasing the chance of dealing zero damage. That is one good thing about multiple attacks. But I'd like to see Attack damage scale.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Lanliss]

I have never quite understood why a 5/5/5/5 getting 5 attacks is a problem. they are 20th level, and gave up a LOT of other bonuses they could have gotten, why shouldn't they get the extra attacks?

 

[Horwath]

I wouldn't give them extra attacks.

That is fighters cool ability to have more than two attacks in attack action.

I would give them extra ASI/feat every time they get extra attack feature beyond 1st time.

so a 5/5/5/5 multiclass would have 2 attacks per attack action and 7 total ASI, 2 more than regular class and equal to a fighter. but losing on all high level features.

 

[Lanliss]

I wouldn't give them extra attacks.

That is fighters cool ability to have more than two attacks in attack action.

I would give them extra ASI/feat every time they get extra attack feature beyond 1st time.

so a 5/5/5/5 multiclass would have 2 attacks per attack action and 7 total ASI, 2 more than regular class and equal to a fighter. but losing on all high level features.

so those few extra ASIs are meant to completely stand in for all of the end game abilities characters get? this means that a 5/5/5/5 would be worse or equal to a level 20 fighter in every possible way. I would rather change the fighters extra extra attacks to something else, and let the extra attacks stack across classes. I honestly do not see it hurting anything, for the amount that needs to be invested for it to happen. if it was 5 attacks at 2/2/2/2 I could see a problem, but all 5s? 20th level, no end game ability EXCEPT for a 5th extra attack? Does not seem all that dangerous, IMO.

 

[Horwath]

so those few extra ASIs are meant to completely stand in for all of the end game abilities characters get? this means that a 5/5/5/5 would be worse or equal to a level 20 fighter in every possible way. I would rather change the fighters extra extra attacks to something else, and let the extra attacks stack across classes. I honestly do not see it hurting anything, for the amount that needs to be invested for it to happen. if it was 5 attacks at 2/2/2/2 I could see a problem, but all 5s? 20th level, no end game ability EXCEPT for a 5th extra attack? Does not seem all that dangerous, IMO.

Ofcourse not.

Multiclassing never gets late game abilities.

You just hope that your combo of low level abilities can McGyver out high level ability effects in some situations.

More feats give you more options for your 2 attacks, so those 2 attacks could catch up to fighters 4.

Or simply give you utility outside of the Attack Action.

 

[Lanliss]

Ofcourse not.

Multiclassing never gets late game abilities.

You just hope that your combo of low level abilities can McGyver out high level ability effects in some situations.

More feats give you more options for your 2 attacks, so those 2 attacks could catch up to fighters 4.

Or simply give you utility outside of the Attack Action.

It just feels to me like the 5/5/5/5 wouldn't stand any sort of chance in a fight against a 20 fighter. Is there any reason to not let these extra attacks stack, beyond niche protection for the fighter? I ask because I think I will let them stack, if it ever comes up in one of my games, and would like to know if there is a genuine reason to not allow it.

 

[Horwath]

It just feels to me like the 5/5/5/5 wouldn't stand any sort of chance in a fight against a 20 fighter. Is there any reason to not let these extra attacks stack, beyond niche protection for the fighter? I ask because I think I will let them stack, if it ever comes up in one of my games, and would like to know if there is a genuine reason to not allow it.

A fighter5/paladin5/ranger5/barbarian5

would have rage, fast movement, advantage on attacks, resistance on all damage, fighters extra action, hunters extra damage, bonuses on various skills due to terrain and favored enemy, 3rd level spells, divine smite, 25 HP heal(ok not much ), 3 fighting styles.

maybe he wouldn't beat fighter in one on one DPS, but he would bring alot more utility to the party.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I have never quite understood why a 5/5/5/5 getting 5 attacks is a problem. they are 20th level, and gave up a LOT of other bonuses they could have gotten, why shouldn't they get the extra attacks?

Because the Fighter class if given one more attack than other classes at that level and that is meant to be their special thing - if a multi-classed character can match, or even best, that, then their "special thing" becomes less special, and would even fall into strange territory of being the only "capstone ability" that is attainable while multi-classing (because you can't get or duplicate any other class' 20th level feature when multi-classing).

 

[Yunru]

Forget 5/5/5/5, a 5/5 has three attacks earlier than the Fighter, with more diversity to boot. That's not right.

 

[Xeviat]

What about my original idea? To grant everyone +1[W] at 5, 11, and 17, like cantrip scaling, and give the warrior classes different abilities instead of just extra attack. It would raise chances of doing zero damage, which is problematic, but it would increase opportunity attacks and help multiclassers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk