Weapon Properties and SR?

[Hypersmurf]

You can't get much more categorical than "magic items produce spells or spell-like effects".

You agree that enhancement bonuses on magic weapons are Ex or Su, don't you?

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

You agree that enhancement bonuses on magic weapons are Ex or Su, don't you?

That's why I said "with the exception of enhancement bonuses" up there.

 

[Shin Okada]

That's why I said "with the exception of enhancement bonuses" up there.

In your logic, how you have concluded that Enhancement Bonuses are the exceptions?

 

[hong]

In your logic, how you have concluded that Enhancement Bonuses are the exceptions?

Because they're specifically called out as exceptions. DMG p.298, "Spell Resistance".

 

[Hypersmurf]

Because they're specifically called out as exceptions. DMG p.298, "Spell Resistance".

They're not 'specifically called out as exceptions'. It's just noted that they're Ex or Su.

So, if you agree that enhancement bonuses are neither spells nor spell-like effects, then you're agreeing that while "Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects", they are not limited to producing only spells or spell-like effects.

Enhancement bonuses aren't an 'exception'; they're simply a feature of a magic item that is neither a spell, nor spell-like.

Magic items produce spells and spell-like effects; in those cases, the formula for determining Save DC is given.

Magic items also do other things. Like Enhancement bonuses. Or, for instance, Flaming.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

They're not 'specifically called out as exceptions'. It's just noted that they're Ex or Su.

... IOW, they're exceptions to the general rule that magic items produce spell-like effects.

So, if you agree that enhancement bonuses are neither spells nor spell-like effects, then you're agreeing that while "Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects", they are not limited to producing only spells or spell-like effects.

Feel free to point out any instance of magic item abilities, with the exception of enhancement bonuses, being explicitly noted as other than spell-like effects.

Enhancement bonuses aren't an 'exception'; they're simply a feature of a magic item that is neither a spell, nor spell-like.

Are you seriously arguing that an enhancement bonus is not a magic item ability?

Magic items produce spells and spell-like effects; in those cases, the formula for determining Save DC is given.

Magic items also do other things. Like Enhancement bonuses. Or, for instance, Flaming.

Or having the spiffy ability to look really cool when you hold them aloft, or spread butter on toast, or serve as an ironing board, yes. Your argument basically amounts to turning magic item abilities into non-abilities as and when it suits you. This is a rather interesting exercise in semantics, but ultimately, why don't you just call it a house rule and be done with it?

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Hmm, interesting. It doesn't appear to be as clear-cut an answer as I first thought. While I wouldn't think a weapon's enhancement bonus could be negated by SR, my first impression would be that flaming or cold qualities could be. However, perhaps those qualities are not in and of themselves magical; rather they are just magically created but are not susceptable to SR. A flaming sword doesn't use magical fire does it? Isn't it just fire damage?

 

[Hypersmurf]

... IOW, they're exceptions to the general rule that magic items produce spell-like effects.

Not at all. The fact that not everything produced by every magic item is a spell or spell-like effect, does not change the fact that magic items produce spells or spell-like effects.

The statement "Trees produce fruit. This fruit can nourish a creature." does not preclude trees from producing leaves. You just won't find leaves mentioned under the 'Trees and nourishment' section, because it's irrelevant.

The 'Magic Items and Saving Throws' section describes the abilities of magic items that allow saving throws. Flaming doesn't, and thus the sentence "Magic items produce spells and spell-like effects", in the saving throws section, is not relevant to the flaming ability.

Are you seriously arguing that an enhancement bonus is not a magic item ability?

Absolutely not!

But since it doesn't allow a save, the "Magic Items and Saving Throws" section isn't relevant to them.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

Does spell resistance apply to the Flaming Burst or Cold weapon qualities?

Funny that this isn't in the FAQ that I can see. My intuition is that the answer is "no". This is based on the following language in the spell resistance description:

Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected.

So it seems to me like a "flaming" effect is really an effect on the weapon, and only incidentally winds up harming the creature that gets hit with the weapon. Similar to the fact that you don't get spell resistance from getting hit by something with magic weapon cast on it.

On the subject of categorizing magic item effects, I agree with Hypersmurf.

 

[hong]

Not at all. The fact that not everything produced by every magic item is a spell or spell-like effect, does not change the fact that magic items produce spells or spell-like effects.

Exactly. Now feel free to produce a cite that magic items produce anything but spell-like effects (with the exception of enhancement bonuses). Unless something like this can be found, the only firm statement in the book, one way or another, is that quoted passage.

The statement "Trees produce fruit. This fruit can nourish a creature." does not preclude trees from producing leaves. You just won't find leaves mentioned under the 'Trees and nourishment' section, because it's irrelevant.

It also doesn't preclude trees from producing thermonuclear explosions. You just won't find thermonuclear explosions mentioned under the "trees and nourishment" section, because it's irrelevant.

Your point is what, exactly?

The 'Magic Items and Saving Throws' section describes the abilities of magic items that allow saving throws. Flaming doesn't, and thus the sentence "Magic items produce spells and spell-like effects", in the saving throws section, is not relevant to the flaming ability.

The ability of the designers to put important rules in obscure sections of the books is pretty notorious.

Your point is what, exactly?

Absolutely not!

But since it doesn't allow a save, the "Magic Items and Saving Throws" section isn't relevant to them.

It doesn't say "magic items that allow saves produce spells or spell-like effects". It says "magic items produce spells or spell-like effects".

You can't get much more categorical than "magic items produce spells or spell-like effects".

... you know, I might have said this before.