Weapon Speed

[Jimlock]

First of all let me say that i really like the thought of incorporating such a rule into my game as well. Actually i've been giving it a thought from time to time, but i never really got down to figure out a rule about it. Like you WB, i always hated the idea that by using small/light weapons one could never actually benefited from their speed in combat.
In D&D (3.x) the only advantage such weapons have is their weight, and the fact that some can be combined with Weapon Finesse. Those benefits are ok, by they have nothing to do with the fact that one actually has more chances to strike multiple times with such a fast weapon.
I think your rule, in general terms, is great. However for purposes of game balance and perhaps... personal taste i made my own personal version of it.
My version is D&D specific and not based on Conan, so for whatever objections you might have, keep that in mind.

SPEED WEAPONS:

Whenever a successful melee attack is made with a speed weapon*, and minimum damage is rolled (e.g. 1 for a dagger's 1d4),

the character wielding the weapon has found an opportunity for a second, quick strike. Thus, the character is entitled to a free attack

against the same opponent with the same weapon and at the same BAB. The character has to be proficient with the weapon(s) used.

The character is allowed one single free attack per weapon/hand used during his round. So if a character uses a short-sword in his primary hand,

he is allowed one free attack with the shortsword no matter the number of his iterative attacks. If the character uses a shortsword in his primary

hand and a dagger in his off hand, he is allowed two free attacks, one for each weapon/hand. For these free attacks,

the character does not apply his strength bonus to damage nor any sort of precision damage. Critical hits are resolved normally.

The number of free attacks count against the character's round and not against his turn. This means that free attacks gained in AoOs

do not count against his free attacks allowed for his round. For purposes of gaining free attacks with unarmed strikes, minimum

damage is considered an actual 1 on a d6, and not both 1 and 2 (unarmed strike damage: 1d3).


*Speed weapons are all light melee (simple/martial/exotic) weapons, including the rapier and the shortspear. The light shield and the light mace are excluded from the list.

I do not necessarily see this ONLY as "a double jolt" performed by piercing weapons. Slashing weapons can be wielded pretty fast as well. I can easily picture a dagger performing a "double slash" at great speed. That's why i did not restrict the list to piercing weapons.

 

[Rhun]

I do like the idea of weapon speeds. But it all depends on how much "realism" you want. Obviously, the d20 system isn't made to simulate actual combat; it is more of a "representation" (for lack of a better word) for how things work out in combat.

So, in my opinion, if you start looking at things like weapon speed, and giving bonuses for said speed to light weapon, then you have to start looking at other things too. For example, as Water Bob mentioned above, the lack of effectiveness of trying to parry a greatsword with a dagger (personally, I think a -2 is for too generous for such a thing). You could get into reach...i.e. would someone with a longsword get a bonus over a person with a dagger because their weapon is three times as long? They certainly should. And then you can get into the weapon vrs armor scenarios as well (which AD&D did try to capture to some extent).

If all these things are important to your combat, you can certainly come up with rules for them. Or you can just play d20 as is, and be content with the fact that it gets the job done.

 

[Raven Crowking]

How did you employ speeds in RCFG?

Initiative is 1d10 + Dex mod + Weapon Speed (if appropriate).

Weapon Speeds are Very Fast (+4), Fast (+2), Normal (+0), Slow (-2), and Very Slow (-4). You have to use the weapon on your action to gain the WS modifier.

If your Initiative total is higher than 10, subtract 10 and you also can act on that phase. If the result is still higher than 10, subtract again. Etc.

If your Initiative total is 0 or below, you do not get to act. But you do gain a +4 on your next roll. This bonus stacks until you get to go. Then you lose the bonus.

Switching to a weapon with a different modifier changes your position in Initiative, so that a person fighting two-handed with a Very Fast and a Normal weapon might gain two attacks with the Very Fast weapon and one with the Normal.

(Haste and Slow in RCFG merely cause Init modifiers!)

Each character also has a set number of Reactions each round, usually equal to character level. Extra attacks, such as AoOs, cost a Reaction. So do most saving throws. If a save is a Free Reaction, you can use a Reaction to gain a +4 bonus. If a save is a Reaction, you can lose your next Action to gain a +4 bonus. If a save is a Free Reaction, you can lose your next Action to gain a +8 bonus. You must decide before you roll.

EXCEPTION: If a save would kill you outright (without any other dice rolled) if failed, such as with a disintigrate spell, your save automatically "bumps up" if doing so would cause you to survive. This is instinctive, and requires (or allows) no decision on the part of the character.

RCFG also uses Weapon Skill ranks that allow you to modify attack rolls, damage rolls, Armour Class, and/or chance of a critical. Some weapons can do special manuvers rather than extra damage on a critical, if the player so chooses. This means that a more skilled opponent can be deadlier with a weapon, even without a magic weapon, and even with a makeshift weapon!

Not only can an RCFG character use a roast joint as an makeshift club, he can do so effectively. Heck, it is possible to build a character who is more effective with makeshift weapons than with normal ones!

This sounds complex to read, but in play in progesses very smoothly, once the players understand the system. We are finding that combats are very dynamic, allow for plenty of tactical decisions, and don't take forever to resolve.

Your rule would allow an extra attack, using weapon skill ranks in the same way, against the same opponent, immediately, costing a Reaction, within the framework of the RCFG rules.

Sounds cool to me! With the condition that you'll tell me your alterations...because, heck, I might like any tweak you do better!

Cool.

Thanks!

 

[FEADIN]

Also attacks were made "in turn", I strike, you strike, I strike again and so on.
There were also weapon adjustments vs armor type.
Gaining more attacks is interesting but IMO if you don't add usual modifiers to damage it's not worth it and it's going more difficult with leveling where adding and substracting is already painful.

 

[Water Bob]

If the character uses a shortsword in his primary

hand and a dagger in his off hand, he is allowed two free attacks, one for each weapon/hand.

Provided both hit and then rolled minimum damage, correct?

Just FYI, statistically, it will be a rare occurence with both weapons are allowed Speed Attacks in a single round.

For these free attacks,

the character does not apply his strength bonus to damage nor any sort of precision damage.

Why go this way?

Think about this. The Speed Attack will not happen that often. And, when it does, it happens with an attack that only does 1 point of damage.

Thus, if you have STR 17 and using a dagger, your first attack will be +3 for STR and +1 for the 1 rolled on the 1d4. That's 4 points of damage plus your next attack--if you hit.

The way you're doing it it will be 4 points of damage plus 1d4 (average 2 points).

To make the attack effective, make spears better weapons to use, and improve the use of daggers and knives, I suggest using full damage both with the original attack and with the Speed Attack.

*Speed weapons are all light melee (simple/martial/exotic) weapons, including the rapier and the shortspear. The light shield and the light mace are excluded from the list.

What about the whip?

I do not necessarily see this ONLY as "a double jolt" performed by piercing weapons. Slashing weapons can be wielded pretty fast as well.

I agree. I only stipulated piercing weapons for those weapons that are wielded two-handed.

My rule was basically all simple and martial one-handed weapons plus two-handed piercing weapons (and I think I'm going to add, "that have 1 die of damage).

I do like the idea of weapon speeds. But it all depends on how much "realism" you want. Obviously, the d20 system isn't made to simulate actual combat; it is more of a "representation" (for lack of a better word) for how things work out in combat.

But, let me remind you that weapon speed, as I reported in the OP, was a factor in both 1st and 2nd edition AD&D combat.

And, with a one minute combat round in 1E AD&D, you don't get much more abstract than that! And, it still accounted for weapon length* and weapon speed.





*In 1E AD&D, the character with the longer weapon always attacked first on the first round of combat. Initiative was not rolled. Nish was decided by weapon length.

Then, on round 2, the d6 was throw, without any modifiers, for nish. When the d6 were tied, this is when weapon speed factors were compared to see if extra attacks were granted.



My point is: The d20 has handled and is more than capable of handling weapon speed.

It was just with 3rd Edition that weapon speed was dropped. Before that, it was a part of the game.

For example, as Water Bob mentioned above, the lack of effectiveness of trying to parry a greatsword with a dagger (personally, I think a -2 is for too generous for such a thing).

That rule in the Conan game is based on size category: Light, One-Handed, Two-Handed. If weapons are in the same size category, there is no bonus or penalty to defense. If one weapon is "light" and the other is "one-handed", then the light weapon gets a -1 to defense while the one-handed weapon gets a +1 to defense. If two categories separate (light vs. two-handed), then the penalty/bonus is +2.

Thus, the maximum penalty or bonus is -2/+2, and this would be a light weapon vs a two-handed weapon.

You could get into reach...i.e. would someone with a longsword get a bonus over a person with a dagger because their weapon is three times as long? They certainly should. And then you can get into the weapon vrs armor scenarios as well (which AD&D did try to capture to some extent).

Under the Conan rule but in D&D terms, the dagger wielder would be -1 AC against the Longsword user, and the Longsword fighter would be at +1 AC against the dagger user.

If all these things are important to your combat, you can certainly come up with rules for them. Or you can just play d20 as is, and be content with the fact that it gets the job done.

The d20 system is certainly complicated enough. That's why, when I make rules like this, I look for ways to integrate them easily, without thought. I look for "triggers".

For this rule, the trigger is the "1" rolled on damage. You don't think about a Speed Attack until you roll a "1" on damage. Then, when you see that, you go for your extra attack.

Easy-cheesey.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Oh, and, in RCFG, the two-handed guy is spending a Reaction for each normal off-handed attack, so there is a cost....And there are tactics whereby an opponent will cause another to use Reactions, so that it cannot make an opposition check against something like a disarm or trip attempt.

Trying to keep a Reaction available is often a good idea!

 

[Water Bob]

Initiative is 1d10 + Dex mod + Weapon Speed (if appropriate).

Don't you find that, by putting weapon speed in the Nish roll, that you run into problems as it was in 2E AD&D?

Things change during the combat. So, if you roll nish, using weapon speed, and your target is dead by the time your turn comes up, your weapon speed really didn't have much to do with what you did in the turn.

Let's say you decide to attack and include your weapon speed in your nish throw. Then, half way through the round, before you act, it becomes important to get the porticullis closed, and you're the closest person to the lever. When your turn comes up, instead of attacking, you run to close the gate.

But now, your weapon speed has influenced when you acted--which is the same problem with weapon speed in 2E AD&D.

Also attacks were made "in turn", I strike, you strike, I strike again and so on.

Which is basically how it happens in other editions of D&D, because of initiative, but I do know what you mean in that 1E AD&D would break up attacks, hardly ever allowing two attacks to come at the same time (unless at the end of the round).

There were also weapon adjustments vs armor type.

The Conan game incorporates that. Each piece of armor has a Damage Resistance value, and every weapon (even shields!) are statted with an Armor Piercing value.

Gaining more attacks is interesting but IMO if you don't add usual modifiers to damage it's not worth it...

I agree. Usual damage modifiers are used under my rule.

...and it's going more difficult with leveling where adding and substracting is already painful.

I don't follow you here. You roll a "1" on damage with a Speed weapon, you get a follow up attack. Simple as that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Don't you find that, by putting weapon speed in the Nish roll, that you run into problems as it was in 2E AD&D?

Things change during the combat. So, if you roll nish, using weapon speed, and your target is dead by the time your turn comes up, your weapon speed really didn't have much to do with what you did in the turn.

Let's say you decide to attack and include your weapon speed in your nish throw. Then, half way through the round, before you act, it becomes important to get the porticullis closed, and you're the closest person to the lever. When your turn comes up, instead of attacking, you run to close the gate.

But now, your weapon speed has influenced when you acted--which is the same problem with weapon speed in 2E AD&D.

Let's say that I have a +2 Dex modifier, a Fast (+2) weapon, and I roll a 7.

I can attack on 11 and 1.

Let's say I attack on 11, and then the gate closes. I want to race over to it on my 1 init, but I lose the +2 bonus, dropping my Init to -1. I fail!

Conversely, let's say my opponent is dropped on phase 12, and I want to run to the lever. My init again drops by 2, from 11 to 9, but I can still act within the round.

Easy-peasy.

Another example: I have a normal weapon, a +2 Dex modifier, and I roll a 7. I can attack on phase 9. My "next action" would be on "-1" and is normally lost.

BUT, I can spend a Reaction to draw and then throw a Very Fast dagger with my off-hand, gaining a +4 bonus, so that I can take this secondary action on phase 3.

Again, it sounds complicated, but in play it seems to work.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Another thing that occurs in play:

Charge is a move action, with an attack at the end occurring as a Reaction. Reactions happen at any time they are triggered, so Weapon Speed doesn't apply.

This means that charging with a Very Slow weapon speeds up your overall place in the initiative order, but you are unlikely to gain a second action that round. Setting a weapon against a charge is a Reaction, that allows you to gain an attack against the oncoming opponent.

Also, when you roll a natural "1", your opponent can spend a Reaction to attack you, because you have left yourself open.

 

[Water Bob]

The Codex Martialis is a d20 combat supplement that approaches weapon reach and weapon speed differently than any of the systems so far presented in this thread.

The Codex will also bring things to the standard D&D game that are already in the Conan game (Finesse combat, where a character can avoid armor, making a type of called shot to strike at a character's weak points. Or Armor that absorbs damage rather than making you harder to hit.)

How the Codex recognizes weapon speed is done with modifiers to the attack roll and modifiers to defense (with the Codex, you are encouraged to use Active Defense, where you roll a d20 plus your defensive modifiers to get a number that varies instead of a static AC all the time, but you can also use the defense modifiers in the Codex as a straight bonus to AC).

Some weapons are quicker and easier/quicker/faster to weild in combat. Other weapons have a long reach that give the user of that weapon a short-loved advantage at the beginning of combat.

I like this because it makes weapon selection a more thoughtful process.

How this is implemented mechanically is that each weapon is given three new values: Modifiers for Reach, Speed, and Defense. Don't confuse this "Reach" with "Reach" weapons in Conan. "Reach" here just means a longer weapon.

You use the Reach modifier on the very first attack of the combat--the first time that weapon is used. This gives long weapons, like a spear, an advantage over something like an arming sword.

After the first time the weapon is used, the Speed modifier is used for the rest of the combat. This gives smaller, lighter weapons an advantage over bigger, bulkier weaons.

But, the big, bulky weapons aren't to be left out! Those weapons have big defense modifiers. It's hard to get in there and cut a guy swinging a two-handed sword at you if you only have a dagger in your hand!



For example, a Hunting Spear has these mods

Reach +8
Speed +0
Defence +2

And an Arming Sword has these

Reach +3
Speed +3
Defence +3



Thus, if Cyrus the Aquilonian, with initiative, uses an arming sword to attack Grule the Pict, who is using a hunting spear....

Cyrus would get +3 on his first attack.
Grule would get +2 to defend that blow.
(So, Cyrus, in effect, gets a +1 to hit Grule with his arming sword.)

A Hunting Spear is a decently long weapon, and the bonus shows that. When it's Grule's turn to act...

Grule will get +8 to hit Cyrus
Cyrus will get +3 to his defense.
(In effect, Grule is getting a +5 to hit on that first round)



But, on the second round, things change in favor of the arming sword...

Cyrus get a +3 to attack.
Grule gets his +2 to defense.

Then

Grule gets +0 to attack.
Cyrus gets +3 to defense.



See what this brings to the game? If you're the type of fighter who can kill in one blow, then you want to use a long weapon with a heavy reach bonus. But, all of a sudden, this combat system makes using a knife or a dagger a much more dangerous proposition than before--since the weapon may have a better bonus than a heavier, more unweildly weapon, and hit more often.

That's pretty neat, huh?

And, before you start wondering about how much time it will take you to conert for your D&D or Conan game--it won't take long at all because one of the Codex supplements focuses on weapons. You just transplant to the numbers to your D&D/Conan weapons. No work at all.